WPA Rules For Transgenders

hang-the-9 · Jun 20, 2016

My son was complaining about how he can't seem to do well at the Junior National tournament to get a spot to go to Worlds, a friend of his from his league that was a girl said "you should just play as a girl, it's a lot easier there". I would think a good male(ish) player that decided to grow boobs would be at a pretty good advantage if he/she wanted to play after the change. If the advantage was fair or not, I'd say it was not fair to anyone else, but that is up to the "make everything equal for everyone not to hurt their feelings" rule makers to decide in an official way. No matter what you do, you are sill going to retain many of the features that make men more suitable for competition. It's like being a good player in a handicapped tournament that maybe is in the top 50%, and then all of a sudden you remove all the handicaps and the players you had to spot 3 games now play you even. All of a sudden you are the top player.

Rhea · Jun 20, 2016

...........................

iusedtoberich · Jun 20, 2016

I never knew Anne O was not born a female until this thread. And I've been reading daily AZB and the cue maker section for over a decade.

This issue is not new, in any of the sports. I've been reading a book about nature vs nurture, "The Sports Gene" and it talks extensively about testing if athletes are male or female, and how that testing has changed over the years. It even gives examples of if a person was born female, she may actually be more male than female, and be at a distinct advantage in the sporting world. Its a fascinating book (this topic is just a small section of the book).

JC · Jun 20, 2016

Rhea said:
Prior to my transition I was a recreational player and a low to average C player at best. I didn't begin to take pool seriously until I was several years into transition. And I worked hard to get to where I am today and even comparing me to every player in the world I am only an average B player now. I may never ever get to the level I want to be to play competitively in any masters division. If I work at my game for the next 20 years I will be over 60 years of age. If by that time I am finally able to cash in just 1 masters event I will be pretty happy with my results. As far as I am aware there are not any transgender pool players that play better than I do. So I really feel like this entire thread is aimed at me.

Too bad Jenner doesn't have an interest in pool. She would probably be good at that too, just like everything else.

JC

erhino41 · Jun 20, 2016

JC said:
I went back and checked and the only vitriol posted in this thread is by you right here and now. Typical of the people now days hating on the haters, your hate is far and away the greatest and most offensive.

JC

Off handed jokes and distilling the motives of all trans gendered people down to merely wanting to get a glimpse of some naked people is highly offensive and would certainly be considered vitriol.

JC · Jun 20, 2016

erhino41 said:
Off handed jokes and distilling the motives of all trans gendered people down to merely wanting to get a glimpse of some naked people is highly offensive and would certainly be considered vitriol.

Compared to what was written by shakes sea? Get real. 4 pages of it? Get real again and all those who are "offended" get over yourselves.

JC

erhino41 · Jun 20, 2016

The line about the dying old men and such went too far and certainly is in the vein of what the poster was complaining about. The overall sentiment of the post I completely agree with. Most of the posts are quite negative and intolerant in nature. Hiding your hate in a joke doesn't make it any better.

Anybody who is ever offended just needs to get over themselves? You are offended by people who are offended by things that are offensive? You need to get over yourself!

mikepage · Jun 20, 2016

ShakesSea said:
Four pages of vitriol and nobody cares to acknowledge what I pointed out in the third post. This barrier has been broken and pool world was not turned upside down.

Annie Mayes, a.k.a. Annie O., was a respected cuemaker (Efren played with one of her cues and good luck finding someone willing to give theirs up these days) and WPBA player, allowed in the league with the support of the other players. The pool community held a benefit for her when she came down with terminal cancer. Here's a thread mourning her passing and praising her memory in a different time:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=78921

Right now some young person with an interest in billiards, wanting to become a better player is running across the world's most visited billiards webpage and seeing this thread on the front page with its fear-baiting, threats of violence against already marginalized people, and angry dying old men trying to out-dick each other who can't make sense of the world crashing down around them. AZB is a valuable resource and may be the world's best collection of pool knowledge and history. This thread is an embarrassment to AZB.

Derrr, why nobody want to play pool wid us no more? Why no pro pool player post here no more?

This post has been heavily edited to not call out every drooling f*ckbag with perverse fantasies of female impersonators peeping up their daughters' skirts. Shameful, disgusting, damning thread.

There are hard problems and easy problems; you address some of the hard problems here.

The easy problem is the four pages of vitriol: just go to "settings" and choose "display 40 posts per page."

KissedOut · Jun 20, 2016

Rhea said:
I actually like the rules that are currently in place, they are extremely fair. They will keep someone from basically just changing their attire and playing in whatever event they want. Declaration is not enough, you should have documentation, and you should have hormonal change on a minimum.

You miss the point. I understand that those are the rules. To the degree rules on this topic can make sense these make sense. But I seriously doubt that they will be allowed to stand in our current environment. We have barely scratched the surface of that the transgender activists are after with the latest Bruce Jenner inspired push.

mortuarymike-nv · Jun 20, 2016

Transgender

Rhea said:
Prior to my transition I was a recreational player and a low to average C player at best. I didn't begin to take pool seriously until I was several years into transition. And I worked hard to get to where I am today and even comparing me to every player in the world I am only an average B player now. I may never ever get to the level I want to be to play competitively in any masters division. If I work at my game for the next 20 years I will be over 60 years of age. If by that time I am finally able to cash in just 1 masters event I will be pretty happy with my results. As far as I am aware there are not any transgender pool players that play better than I do. So I really feel like this entire thread is aimed at me.

To be honest I didn't know you were transgender.

You are not going to stop the cheap shots that people make to be mean or make a joke of the life style you have chosen ....

You knew that going into your surgeries...

The topic is about the WPA rules on transgender players ,, < PLAYER'S <

Your are a player. the topic covers all transgender players , not the best pool player not just you...

You might be a expert on this subject, if you make this personal your expertise goes out the window ..

erhino41 · Jun 20, 2016

KissedOut said:
You miss the point. I understand that those are the rules. To the degree rules on this topic can make sense these make sense. But I seriously doubt that they will be allowed to stand in our current environment. We have barely scratched the surface of that the transgender activists are after with the latest Bruce Jenner inspired push.

I don't think these rules are exactly perfect because they take out the fact that there are many people who identify as female who don't want to physically alter their bodies. Take for instance saying that all cross dresses who do not want to undergo hormonal therapies for whatever reason are males because they are not on hormones. This completely disregards who they are on the inside. Your either all in or your nothing is not the way it is. I would think that anyone who dresses in women's clothes in some way shape or form identifies with the female gender.

Now the real question at hand is: how could you ever make a rule to encompass all forms of gender identity and keep a competitive environment for all those involved? I don't think you really can. These may be the closest we can get, having to have medical"proof". Once you relax the rules of any sport, people are going to be waiting to jump in and game the system. It is a shame but that is life.

I do think it is odd that the wpba would take this stance on the subject. Simply by having this rule they are implying that men are superior to females and that a person has to "handicap" themselves with hormones in order to level the playing field. I do not feel this way, but that seems to be the implication here.

hang-the-9 · Jun 20, 2016

erhino41 said:
I don't think these rules are exactly perfect because they take out the fact that there are many people who identify as female who don't want to physically alter their bodies. Take for instance saying that all cross dresses who do not want to undergo hormonal therapies for whatever reason are males because they are not on hormones. This completely disregards who they are on the inside. Your either all in or your nothing is not the way it is. I would think that anyone who dresses in women's clothes in some way shape or form identifies with the female gender.

Now the real question at hand is: how could you ever make a rule to encompass all forms of gender identity and keep a competitive environment for all those involved? I don't think you really can. These may be the closest we can get, having to have medical"proof". Once you relax the rules of any sport, people are going to be waiting to jump in and game the system. It is a shame but that is life.

I do think it is odd that the wpba would take this stance on the subject. Simply by having this rule they are implying that men are superior to females and that a person has to "handicap" themselves with hormones in order to level the playing field. I do not feel this way, but that seems to be the implication here.

There are a ton of non-pro men out there that would crush any but the top 2-3 US Women pros, so yes they are correct to try to prevent someone from using a "I like to wear a wig and a dress" loophole to keep stronger players out. It's no different than a handicapped league where someone who is a known top player, but is new to the league, and he/she tries to slide in as a low handicap because they are "new". It's not fair to everyone else.

StuartTKelley · Jun 20, 2016

DJSTEVEZ said:
It would seem to me, given similar issues that have come up out there, the WPBA would find itself ripe for a massive lawsuit if it didn't "accommodate" any player who met all their other criteria for play simply because of the anatomical factors. The rule seems to be the world, or at least everyone in the US, needs to go with whatever gender someone identifies themselves as being.

This means anyone who identifies themselves as a female, regardless of whether or not their transition includes or falls short of gender reassignment surgery, must be treated as a woman.

-Z-

Sounds like Obama rules.

erhino41 · Jun 20, 2016

hang-the-9 said:
There are a ton of non-pro men out there that would crush any but the top 2-3 US Women pros, so yes they are correct to try to prevent someone from using a "I like to wear a wig and a dress" loophole to keep stronger players out. It's no different than a handicapped league where someone who is a known top player, but is new to the league, and he/she tries to slide in as a low handicap because they are "new". It's not fair to everyone else.

I do agree that as it stands there are many more male than female pool players and there are many more high level male players than female players. I am not of the belief that it is inherently due to gender inequality. Thinking about it more I can certainly see why they have to take this stance. I don't think there is a clear cut answer of any sort here. I for one don't care about the cheats, I just hope everybody has a chance to be happy and do something that they love regardless of how they identify themselves.

JC · Jun 20, 2016

erhino41 said:
The line about the dying old men and such went too far and certainly is in the vein of what the poster was complaining about. The overall sentiment of the post I completely agree with. Most of the posts are quite negative and intolerant in nature. Hiding your hate in a joke doesn't make it any better.

Anybody who is ever offended just needs to get over themselves? You are offended by people who are offended by things that are offensive? You need to get over yourself!

I am extremely hard to offend as anyone who want's a stress free life should be.

JC

erhino41 · Jun 20, 2016

JC said:
I am extremely hard to offend as anyone who want's a stress free life should be.

JC

I lead a very stress free life, I am just able to bear only so much ignorance.

CJH · Jun 20, 2016

erhino41 said:
I don't think these rules are exactly perfect because they take out the fact that there are many people who identify as female who don't want to physically alter their bodies. Take for instance saying that all cross dresses who do not want to undergo hormonal therapies for whatever reason are males because they are not on hormones. This completely disregards who they are on the inside.Your either all in or your nothing is not the way it is. I would think that anyone who dresses in women's clothes in some way shape or form identifies with the female gender.

Now the real question at hand is: how could you ever make a rule to encompass all forms of gender identity and keep a competitive environment for all those involved? I don't think you really can. These may be the closest we can get, having to have medical"proof". Once you relax the rules of any sport, people are going to be waiting to jump in and game the system. It is a shame but that is life.

I do think it is odd that the wpba would take this stance on the subject. Simply by having this rule they are implying that men are superior to females and that a person has to "handicap" themselves with hormones in order to level the playing field. I do not feel this way, but that seems to be the implication here.

I don't hate anybody and encourage freedom in living life in the lifestyle of ones wishes but feelings do not trump science, biology and pure fact. If someone is scientifically or biologically a male or female, that's good enough for me. If not, they are out. Anything beyond that and the rule writers will be re-writing the books ad infinitum to include all the possible "special cases and circumstances".

Texas Carom Club · Jun 20, 2016

JC said:
I am extremely hard to offend as anyone who want's a stress free life should be.

JC

Same here brutha

Straightpool_99 · Jun 20, 2016

Way to create problems for yourselves! There are a MILLION URGENT PROBLEMS in the world right now, I mean real life or death style decisions we will have to make to ensure the survival of the human race, and THIS is the problem that you care about:grin:!?

By all means, do your best to shield your women from the men without male genetalia and a system full of female hormones..I'd probably worry more about the inverse situation myself, but hey..

First, allow me to ask you all a question: Why did womens pool stay on tv in America longer than mens pool? Was the level of competition higher, or do you suppose other factors were at play

? Why can a female pool player (with certain attributes) make a living, playing at a B-speed, while male super pros are starving? Not talking about tournament winnings only, but sponsorship specifically. Now ask yourselves, are transgendered people going to horn in on this very limited market? Can they, even?

First: Nobody is going to cut off their genitalia to earn the meager wage of a female pool pro.

Second: No transgendered people we know of even posess the skills necessary to do so.

Third: Would a transgendered person even have that much of a physical advantage in the game of pool? Not talking about Mika/Thorsten/Shane in a dress here, I mean an actual transgender person. If the hormones had no effect, people wouldn't be taking them...

Natural born women have been and still are competitive at a fairly high level with men. Jean Balukas and Jasmine Ouschan are examples of that. If more women were actually interested in pool we would have more examples of this.

justadub · Jun 20, 2016

Straightpool_99 said:
Way to create problems for yourselves! There are a MILLION URGENT PROBLEMS in the world right now, I mean real life or death style decisions we will have to make to ensure the survival of the human race, and THIS is the problem that you care about:grin:!?

By all means, do your best to shield your women from the men without male genetalia and a system full of female hormones..I'd probably worry more about the inverse situation myself, but hey..

First, allow me to ask you all a question: Why did womens pool stay on tv in America longer than mens pool? Was the level of competition higher, or do you suppose other factors were at play? Why can a female pool player (with certain attributes) make a living, playing at a B-speed, while male super pros are starving? Not talking about tournament winnings only, but sponsorship specifically. Now ask yourselves, are transgendered people going to horn in on this very limited market? Can they, even?

First: Nobody is going to cut off their genitalia to earn the meager wage of a female pool pro.

Second: No transgendered people we know of even posess the skills necessary to do so.

Third: Would a transgendered person even have that much of a physical advantage in the game of pool? Not talking about Mika/Thorsten/Shane in a dress here, I mean an actual transgender person. If the hormones had no effect, people wouldn't be taking them...

Natural born women have been and still are competitive at a fairly high level with men. Jean Balukas and Jasmine Ouschan are examples of that. If more women were actually interested in pool we would have more examples of this.

The reason the women remained on TV longer than the men is that their tour paid for the airtime. Because they actually had a tour, and an organization.

WPA Rules For Transgenders

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