The unestablished fargo player
- Thread starter JC
- Start date
I agree here. I was in the event last year, and in the minis you had to have an established Fargo rating. Yet some people played and did not. Had some guy that was an A player playing as a C. After the event I looked up his rating, he was over a 600.
When in the event he was like a 450. As a 550/560 my son was spotting him 5-3.
Handicaps in sports is like Communism and Socialism. Good ideas as long as everyone is honest and fair. Which is why none of them work in the real world the way they do on paper.
My son was complaining that he is playing well and beating higher ranked players but is not going up, most people we talk to get a reaction like "why would you want to to up in your skill rating!!??" like it's a bad thing to play good and actually be known for playing good.
I would take an even race to 7 I can't hope to win vs a pro over a 7-4 handicap vs a sandbagger I may beat any day.
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Go to ctsondemand.com.
This should be in the first page of every league manual LOL Well said.
Along with "those that usually make the biggest fuss over rules are the most likely to try to break then when you are not looking". The guy that yells out that you forgot to mark a pocket is the guy that is likely to hide a foul from you.
Sure, but if you want to lower your rating you're going to really want to lose to those weaker players. Otherwise you're not going to decrease that much.
I wonder what would happen to a 700 who enters a weekly tournament with a bunch of 400s, and beats them all by 1 game. So now they've won, say 30 games against 400s but lost 25. That could do some damage to the rating.
Ummmm...you can add capitalism to that list too.
Just giving an example because people keep talking about going two and out every week.
How many games a player has in the system would make a difference in how much rating is impacted.
Yes but capitalism as it's own thing creates inequality by it's nature, which may or may not be fair to society overall. Is having less stuff but everyone shares more equally worse or better than having some people buying $100,000 cars and watches they don't need at all and having homeless and hungry kids?
Simple: 2/3 of the players are unestablished. No business can disenfranchise 2/3 of its customer base. However, one would think switching to an established-only format would see a whole bunch of players suddenly become established.
Yes, but the conversation about sandbagging is off point. The issue here is un-established players entering tournaments with artificially low ratings because of an incorrect (or dishonest) low starter rating. Un-established players should play at the higher of their starter rating or actual games logged so far. If they are allowed in at all.
All of the leagues have some type on qualification that needs to be met to participate. Whether it be 10 matches played in the last year or whatever. I do agree that more people would get the required games if they needed them to play in these tournaments.
It is almost like these are advertised as fargo tournaments and having a rating is merely a suggestion.
if you want a ratingand do not have one, ask your tournament director to put the weekly bracket into challonge. It really isn't that hard to do. That is starting to happen more often here. The league I play in uses ball spots so cant use it to get a rating.
Adding some data to this thread. Winners current fargo info. May have been different when they registered.
Bronze 2. Fargo 391 robust 154
Bronze 1 Fargo 466 robust 96
Silver 2. Fargo 519 robust 165
Silver 1. Fargo 516 robust 285
Gold. Fargo 571 robust 384
Platinum Fargo 683 robust 209. < ???
Elite. Fargo 708 robust 1887
Bronze 2. Fargo 391 robust 154
Bronze 1 Fargo 466 robust 96
Silver 2. Fargo 519 robust 165
Silver 1. Fargo 516 robust 285
Gold. Fargo 571 robust 384
Platinum Fargo 683 robust 209. < ???
Elite. Fargo 708 robust 1887
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It could just result from natural error. Mike Page said that unestablished players are not, on average, winning more than established players. Maybe it looks something like this: Half of all unestablished players are within 25 points of their true rating. 90% are within 75 points. But maybe 5% are underrated by 100 points and 5% are overrated by 100. Those 5% who are underrated by 100 are going to win or place very high in their divisions. We’re just going to forget about everyone else.
Last tournament I attended went like this:
I walk in, go to bar and say I want to play in tournament. Fellow comes up and asks if I'm a league player. I said no. He ask if I have a Fargo rating. I said no. He said, wel, since we dont know you, I'll put you in as a 7.
I told him I felt that was to low. He said naw, it'll be fine. Well, lol.... it wasn't fine. I felt like I was stealing.
In that type situation, I was honest but it did no good and players i can spot the last 3/4 balls were forced to give me games on wire.
As one could expect, I won the tournament but I did split my winnings with the 2nd thru 5th place after taking my expenses out.
After I did that, folks stop giving me the stink eye and actually invited me back.
If they treat everyone the way they did me, I can understand how they could be robbed on a regular basis.
The average player there is a BCA 5 to 7 in nine ball.
I’ve had the exact same experience. Once the TD actually told me “Son, you ain’t as good as you think you is.” I won. Everybody was pissed. Especially the TD who accused me of ‘sneaking in’ lol. I practically begged him to make me a 9 (out of 11) and he made me a 4. I was probably really a high 8. So people my speed had to beat me 4-2.
I don’t know why they don’t just take strangers at their word if they say they are good.
Very true. Some people dont like to admit it but, the fact is, there are plenty of unknowns that obviously aren't in Fargo and rarely leave their basement..... much less travel and play tournaments regular enough to be "known"..... that would be in low to mid 700's all day long.
I seriously doubt there are too many people who only play in their basements and don’t play in tournaments and are low to mid 700s. Mid 700 is top 20 in the US lol.
Dan Wolfe
Registered
I posted this on Facebook on the Western BCA Player's Group (Official) page in response to this thread...
Just thinking out loud here... I got home from the coast last night and was poking around on AZ billiards like most of us do. I noticed a post where someone pointed out that 4 of the 6 singles division winners were unestablished going into the event. I confirmed this by looking at each winner and checking their Fargo. Most interesting was Brad Gowin who was an unestablished 601 going into the event and won Platinum singles. It appears that singles data has already gone into FargoRate, and now Brad is an established 683. Perhaps it's time to consider requiring players to be established before entering larger events such as BCA Regionals & Nationals? Maybe have separate "Trophy" divisions or something for the unestablished players? I've already seen local tournaments with slightly larger payouts require that players be established before entering. I just think of it as a way to kind of "pay your dues" before you can go for the big bucks. Not mad... just sayin'...
Just thinking out loud here... I got home from the coast last night and was poking around on AZ billiards like most of us do. I noticed a post where someone pointed out that 4 of the 6 singles division winners were unestablished going into the event. I confirmed this by looking at each winner and checking their Fargo. Most interesting was Brad Gowin who was an unestablished 601 going into the event and won Platinum singles. It appears that singles data has already gone into FargoRate, and now Brad is an established 683. Perhaps it's time to consider requiring players to be established before entering larger events such as BCA Regionals & Nationals? Maybe have separate "Trophy" divisions or something for the unestablished players? I've already seen local tournaments with slightly larger payouts require that players be established before entering. I just think of it as a way to kind of "pay your dues" before you can go for the big bucks. Not mad... just sayin'...