another deflection thread

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep.

Cues with more or less squirt simply produce identical forces at slightly different angles to the cues' center lines - angling the cues slightly differently produces identical forces, directions and CB action.

But WTF is up with low squirt and jumping?

pj
chgo
No idea. It's some excuse that will never actually come up that can be used to disparage LD shafts.

I'm not against LD shafts in the least. I know what I like and its my standard maple shaft. I tell people to find a shaft they like the feel of, weight, balance, stiffness, and learn the adjustments for that shaft, whether it be diamondwood of the newest fanciest ld shaft.

I won't tell them one way or the other that one of them is easier. If they find it easier then good for them.


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Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Comes up for me every time I try to jump with my LD shaft... :mad:

pj <- LD shaft fan
chgo

I’ve complained of that issue since I tried an LD shaft. I can only assume it’s a combo between it’s LD properties, and front end materials. There are some that work, that pros demonstrate routinely in matches. And some that never work. Or is it all stroke? I can jump full cue no problem. Playing and break. But not with an LD shaft for whatever reason.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
FYI, this question is addressed on the jump cue resource page.

Check it out,
Dave
It appears that the two differences that make LD shafts jump so much worse than regular cues is less stiffness and poorer "hit efficiency" (which I take to mean transferring less force).

My very low squirt cue feels very stiff because of its conical taper - does that reduce stiffness as a jump factor?

Does low end mass play a direct role in hit efficiency?

Thanks again for all the great info you regularly provide us!

pj
chgo
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
It appears that the two differences that make LD shafts jump so much worse than regular cues is less stiffness and poorer "hit efficiency" (which I take to mean transferring less force).

My very low squirt cue feels very stiff because of its conical taper - does that reduce stiffness as a jump factor?

Does low end mass play a direct role in hit efficiency?

Thanks again for all the great info you regularly provide us!

pj
chgo
Low deflection shafts are actualy high deflection.
They deflect off the cue ball easier than regular shafts.
They don't stay on the ball and trap it to the slate in jumping. They deflect off the ball.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
FYI, this question is addressed on the jump cue resource page.

Check it out,
Dave

It appears that the two differences that make LD shafts jump so much worse than regular cues is less stiffness and poorer "hit efficiency" (which I take to mean transferring less force).

My very low squirt cue feels very stiff because of its conical taper - does that reduce stiffness as a jump factor?
The conical taper increases the stiffness away from the tip gradually, but the stiffness close to the tip is still a lot less than with a typical jump cue.

Does low end mass play a direct role in hit efficiency?
I don't think so. The tip properties (leather vs. phenolic) and the vibrations remaining in the shaft after the hit determine the hit efficiency. A jump cue has good efficiency on both accounts.

Thanks again for all the great info you regularly provide us!
You're very welcome. As you know, I aim to swerve. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Comes up for me every time I try to jump with my LD shaft... :mad:

pj <- LD shaft fan
chgo
Oh, you were serious. Sorry. I don't jump with my playing cue and I've never tried to jump with an ld shaft. I kick far more often than I jump and if jump cues weren't allowed I would kick every time, no second thoughts.


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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
explain please

I think it's simpler than that.

More or less deflection only means you have to hit the same CB spot with the cue angled a little differently to get the same direction of force through the CB, giving the same spin, swerve and everything else.

pj
chgo



pj,

You have made this statement quite a few times. Please explain what you move to be able to hit the cue ball in the same place at different angles.

Thanks,
Hu
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve complained of that issue since I tried an LD shaft. I can only assume it’s a combo between it’s LD properties, and front end materials. There are some that work, that pros demonstrate routinely in matches. And some that never work. Or is it all stroke? I can jump full cue no problem. Playing and break. But not with an LD shaft for whatever reason.
Out of curiosity which pros jump with ld shafts?

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
pj,

You have made this statement quite a few times. Please explain what you move to be able to hit the cue ball in the same place at different angles.

Thanks,
Hu
Here's a good illustration from PJ (from the LD shaft resource page) that illustrates the effect:

PJ_squirt.jpg

Regards,
Dave
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Oh, you were serious. Sorry. I don't jump with my playing cue and I've never tried to jump with an ld shaft. I kick far more often than I jump and if jump cues weren't allowed I would kick every time, no second thoughts.


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Try it with an LD shaft sometime...

pj <- either you won't like it or I suck at jumping (maybe both)
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
More or less deflection only means you have to hit the same CB spot with the cue angled a little differently to get the same direction of force through the CB, giving the same spin, swerve and everything else.
pj,

You have made this statement quite a few times. Please explain what you move to be able to hit the cue ball in the same place at different angles.
Here's a good illustration from PJ (from the LD shaft resource page) that illustrates the effect:
Thanks, Dave - I was going to post the same illustration.

Hu, what this illustrates is that no matter what cue you use, if you hit the same CB spot with the same amount of force, and if you angle the cue correctly for squirt, then all cues produce the same force in the same direction through the CB. The CB can't "feel" which way the cue is angled or the tip is moving at impact, it only "feels" the direction of the force, which has been redirected by squirt. So all the cues in the diagram "feel" the same to the CB and produce the same CB action.

Hope this clarifies my meaning,

pj
chgo

P.S. 1. The squirt angles in the diagram are exaggerated. 2. Of course there's no such thing (yet) as a "no squirt" cue.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Hu, what this illustrates is that no matter what cue you use, if you hit the same CB spot with the same amount of force, and if you angle the cue correctly for squirt, then all cues produce the same force in the same direction through the CB. The CB can't "feel" which way the cue is angled or the tip is moving at impact, it only "feels" the direction of the force, which has been redirected by squirt. So all the cues in the diagram "feel" the same to the CB and produce the same CB action.

Hope this clarifies my meaning,
P.S. I think this also illustrates how the miscue limit and maximum spin amount are the same for all cues, and why swoop strokes are useless.

pj <- but that's another thread (or two)
chgo
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
So the bridge hand and grip hand are both on different lines?

P.S. I think this also illustrates how the miscue limit and maximum spin amount are the same for all cues, and why swoop strokes are useless.

pj <- but that's another thread (or two)
chgo



pj,

I didn't want to lead you but you didn't even come close to answering my question. To put it another way, to get the same effect with the low deflection cue as with the high deflection cue, you have to place both your bridge and grip hand on a different line than that used with a high deflection cue. Yes or no?

Hu
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
pj,

I didn't want to lead you but you didn't even come close to answering my question. To put it another way, to get the same effect with the low deflection cue as with the high deflection cue, you have to place both your bridge and grip hand on a different line than that used with a high deflection cue. Yes or no?

Hu
Yes, of course, since the cue (except for the tip) must be on a different line.

pj <- assuming you’re stroking straight (not swooping)
chgo
 
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Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
P.S. I think this also illustrates how the miscue limit and maximum spin amount are the same for all cues, and why swoop strokes are useless.

pj <- but that's another thread (or two)
chgo

Swoop strokes work but are useless, but not for that reason. Think of swing planes in golf. Coming across the ball adds the side spin to make it hook/slice. The distance a golf ball goes allows for that side spin to have an effect. The cue ball doesn’t have room to get that extra spin to matter. It just is such a specialized effect that it should be useless for 99.999999% of shots.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Coming across the ball adds the side spin
Not more than you can get with a straight stroke.

If you hit the CB on the same spot, but the force direction through the CB is different, then you miss the shot. But if the force direction is the same, then you don't get any more spin. So it's impossible to increase spin with a swoop stroke and still make the shot. (In the illustration it's impossible to create more spin at all because the tips are all already hitting at the miscue limit.)

Swooping doesn't do anything but make it harder to hit the correct spot at the correct angle.

pj
chgo
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Swooping doesn't do anything but make it harder to hit the correct spot at the correct angle.
I am not a fan of swooping, but it can offer advantages to some people, as listed on the swoop/swipe stroke resource page. Here they are:

1. A swoop stroke allows one to aim and hit closer to the center of the CB, to apply sidespin. This effect doesn’t allow one to put more spin on the CB than is possible with a straight stroke, nor does it change the effective miscue limit (or the maximum amount of spin possible), but it does allow one to hit the CB with less “apparent” tip offset.

2. The sideways swiping motion (especially if it is fast in comparison to the forward speed of the cue) helps provide slightly more squirt (cue ball deflection) aim compensation than is provided by a pre-stroke BHE pivot. And if one uses a non-LD-shaft (especially with a long bridge length), this slightly extra squirt compensation might be helpful (assuming they haven’t already adjusted their aim and alignment to intuitively compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, as most pros and top players do).

3. A swoop stroke can allow the cue to be aligned closer to the direction one wants the CB to head (assuming the aim compensation provide by the swooping motion is appropriate for the amount of squirt, swerve, and throw anticipated for the given shot). This could make it easier for some people to visualize the line of the shot and one’s aim and cue alignment. Without a swoop, to compensate for squirt, the cue alignment at address would be off center and in general not in-line with the desired direction of CB motion. Most top players can aim and align the cue in this fashion intuitively, and it is comfortable. However, some people find the off-center and off-line pre-stroke cue alignment to be disconcerting.

4. A swoop stroke allows one to apply BHE squirt correction during the stroke instead of before the stroke. BHE before the stroke can be awkward, uncomfortable and unnatural to some people. Some, while aiming and aligning a shot, don’t like seeing the cue pointing in a different direction than they want the CB to head. Also, some people don’t like to change their stance (which can occur with a pre-stroke BHE pivot) and cue alignment after being down on a shot.

Regards,
Dave
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
1. A swoop stroke ... doesn’t allow one to put more spin on the CB than is possible with a straight stroke, nor does it change the effective miscue limit (or the maximum amount of spin possible)
The other points you make are true, of course (although not advantages for me), but I want to highlight your first statement about it because this is what most swoopers (wrongly) think it does for them.

pj
chgo
 
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