Kicking/banking during game...

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To all of you , fellow players,
here a subject that I feel weak in!

Any of us, I'm sure, is more or less aware of the various systems of aimig to rails for kicking/banking(such like Sid,2 rails parallel lines, 3 rails counting, fixed point for 3 rails...etc etc), but personally I find it hard to remember/use while in a game!!!

Maybe just a lack of experience / specific training, maybe lazyness......but I'm wondering if any of you has developped an "easy shortcut" to use when "in the heat" of a match!

Thanks for your imput!! :grin:

Get Jimmy Reids "Almost All I Know" its a great DVD package.

And then practice. :smile:

John
 

Dunnn51

Clear the table!
Silver Member
What Tramp said:

Systems are fine to know, but the one thing that will hold you in good stead will be your mind's eye being able to see the shot. That comes from repetition.
Practice short banks and kicks, long banks and kicks, crossing banks, two and three rail banks, and even four railers. Do it over and over and there will come a time when your intuitive mind will recognize a shot and execute it successfully. :smile:

ahhhh, That intuitive mind thing ,...............

I'd really like to credit that intuitive mind approach, but what really does it for me is when I botch a straight-in shot and miss by 1/2 a diamond or so. Then it hits 2 rails and almost pockets at the opposite corner,..... that's when the :idea2: comes on,.... goes like this :
Hey dummy! that awlful shot aside,... if you do that on purpose , you can get some really good stop position at point of contact on the table, or did you forget 3 cushions ?? :cool:
 

EasyEJL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok shot 1

Shot1.png


shooting at the pocket with the arrow pointed to it, as x=0,y=0. Object ball is at an x of 5, and a y of 2 - 5 diamonds from the pocket horizontally, 2 vertically. using that formula you get a width of 3.33, so you aim the object ball onto the line that hits the 3 1/3 diamonds from the pockets

shot 2

shot2.png


same pocket as goal pocket. Object ball is at 2.5 horizontally and 2.5 vertically. Plugged in that gives you 1.8 as the aim spot, so the object ball has to travel on that line.


the math is sound geometry, it took a while of playing with the concepts to get it right.
 

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok shot 1



shooting at the pocket with the arrow pointed to it, as x=0,y=0. Object ball is at an x of 5, and a y of 2 - 5 diamonds from the pocket horizontally, 2 vertically. using that formula you get a width of 3.33, so you aim the object ball onto the line that hits the 3 1/3 diamonds from the pockets

[....]


the math is sound geometry, it took a while of playing with the concepts to get it right.

That's geometry. Pool is physics. You have to account for the compression of the cushion, the roll of the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the humidity of the room, among other things. Balancing all of these factors is where feel comes in.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's geometry. Pool is physics. You have to account for the compression of the cushion, the roll of the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the humidity of the room, among other things. Balancing all of these factors is where feel comes in.
thats where the systems get you on the block and feel (or more systems)
find the house
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
Ok shot 1

Shot1.png


shooting at the pocket with the arrow pointed to it, as x=0,y=0. Object ball is at an x of 5, and a y of 2 - 5 diamonds from the pocket horizontally, 2 vertically. using that formula you get a width of 3.33, so you aim the object ball onto the line that hits the 3 1/3 diamonds from the pockets

shot 2

shot2.png


same pocket as goal pocket. Object ball is at 2.5 horizontally and 2.5 vertically. Plugged in that gives you 1.8 as the aim spot, so the object ball has to travel on that line.


the math is sound geometry, it took a while of playing with the concepts to get it right.

Hitting the perfect pocket speed for shot number one is like riding a fence...it may happen....more likely solution if shoot the shot straight to the rail with force and watch the ball play dead in the pocket. You can draw the ball 1tip or less with force and run out.

I would play the shot the way you diagrammed it if playing One Pocket and were feeling my Pocket Speed real good otherwise Id play it the way I described.

Shot 2 I think your half way point is off by 2 decimals to 1.6 I would play the shot into 1.4 just a tad firm.......again hitting perfect pocket speed is a hard thing to do at certain angles it doesnt take hitting off on the rail much or hitting just a tad above pocket speed to make a perfectly divided bank play short....of course all of this depends on how much cue ball travel you want and how thickly you are hitting the ball.....the 2 ball combo isnt to bad from most positions for the next shot..

Nice diagrams kudos dude...

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
That's geometry. Pool is physics. You have to account for the compression of the cushion, the roll of the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the humidity of the room, among other things. Balancing all of these factors is where feel comes in.

Yes, what you said, among other things like roll of the cue ball, slide of the cue ball, back-spin on the cue ball, side-spin on the cue ball, swerve of the cue ball, deflection of the cue ball. :banghead:
 

The Kiss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a book Written by a PHD that has all the kicking and counting systems. Can't find the book or remember the name but someone likely has the name

Might be down stairs in the pool room. Awesome resource I'll see if it turns up
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have a book Written by a PHD that has all the kicking and counting systems. Can't find the book or remember the name but someone likely has the name

Might be down stairs in the pool room. Awesome resource I'll see if it turns up
You probably mean the book by Desmond Allen. While he may have a lot of systems, I don't think he comes close to Walt Harris's massive collection of systems.
 

JuicyGirl

Scroll Lock- Juicy Style
Silver Member
I used to feel like I just stepped in to the twilight zone

I used to feel like I just stepped in to the twilight zone. For the life of me I couldn't understand why I could make kicks and banks yesterday and can't hit sh!t today.

The best thing I have so far has nothing to do with math, physics or geometry but it works for me. I have to practice banks and kicks on the game table on that day (everyday) to catch my feel for the night. A lot of the mechanics of pool merge into factors that are not included in a math formula like humidity, how soft or hard each rail is, maybe the specific condition of your game table (is it fast or slow, are there a crap load of pilings from the new cheap felt), heck you even need to watch out for the condition of the balls on the table. I can grant you that I will flub my banks during my warm up at ridiculous rates. I may spend easy 20 balls trying to make it in to the center pocket ( I do practice kicks and other banks during my warm up). After that I'm solid on my kicks and banks. At my level that's really good, and I intend to keep getting better.
 

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
....ahahahahah!!!
I wish was real!!

Beside jokes, I thank you all, but I know a lot of systems, and for 1 and 2 rails I feel quite confident ( like missing 1 or 2 out of 10)
I was just saying that during matches sometimes my confidence fade off ( choking?)
So I wonder if same happen to any of you!!
In reality , kicks specially is not something you often use, unless obliged!
I'm actually try to rely more on rails rather than jump shot, i.e. !!!
But someone says right! Need to put more practice to get used to it!

Well, I'll go practice now! See ya!
;-)

I did not mean to make lite of someone trying to further their knowledge (sorry). I am a guy that firmly believes in systems for 1-2 rail kicks and use them in games. Sometimes I am successful, and sometimes not. Frankly, I only use the systems when I feel a little off. When I am in stroke, I rarely think about anything like this. I just thought the question was a little weird, because the systems are the theoretical shortcut and feel is the artsy shortcut. I can't think of any other ways to do it. If it was easier than a system or feel shot, the idea would be patented. The trick is to use systems and feel together.

Stroke em straight and shoot well.

Brian
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Equal Angle Reference Angles

For one rail banks and kicks I visualize nearby "equal angle reference angles" using the diamonds.

Here are the reference angles for banking/kicking to the bottom left corner pocket - they connect each 1/2 diamond on the far rail with the whole diamond twice as far along on the near rail:

Banking Lanes 1.jpg

Of course, I don't visualize all these reference angles for every shot to that corner. For instance, the 2 ball is very near one reference angle, so I'll just compare it to that one:

Banking Lanes 2.jpg

The 1 ball is midway between two reference angles, so I'll compare it to both of them:

Banking Lanes 3.jpg

Here's the same technique applied to kicking at a ball that's not on the near rail. Just move the near "rail" (where you measure the whole diamonds) up to be parallel with the target - it doesn't matter if the cue ball is above or below the adjusted "rail".

banking lanes.jpg

pj
chgo
 
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JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
My advice - find the system that is easiest for you to see the aim quickly and then practice with that until you can pretty much see the banks without the system. That's what I did and now I have a pretty good feeling for bank shots. But I will when needed use the system I like best to figure them.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Hi all,


I am for sure a big believer of *knowledge is power*- and if it s about banking and kicking, you definitley need a lot of knowledge and even more expirience.
To know some system is very helpful-and especially under pressure. But you need to practice a lot and you need the expirience from playing over and over again under different conditions (weather,changing material etc. ). If we just talk about *simple* banks or kicks (equal in-an-out angle ) for example- this is already tough enough- as soon as you have you *dead straight in bank shot*- there are already several things you have to know. Correct speed, condition of cloth, condition of the rails etc.- This you just can master, if oyu have the necessary expirience. Even if you know how the *perfect path of the object ball and how it has to roll* you have not 100% success for sure. Just a minor angle from whitey to the object ball (not straight in line with ob) you ll have the first problem. As soon as whitey has an angle to the ob- and so that you have to *cut* the object ball, (no matter if it s a thin cut or just 10 degree) the objectball you have to calculate throw and english.

So you have to practice over and over again with kick shots and bank shots. Expirience and knowledge are your best friends. and best friends are hard to find :)

lg
Ingo
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
For one rail banks and kicks I visualize nearby "equal angle reference angles" using the diamonds.

Here are the reference angles for banking/kicking to the bottom left corner pocket - they connect each 1/2 diamond on the far rail with the whole diamond twice as far along on the near rail:

View attachment 249263

Of course, I don't visualize all these reference angles for every shot to that corner. For instance, the 2 ball is very near one reference angle, so I'll just compare it to that one:

View attachment 249264

The 1 ball is midway between two reference angles, so I'll compare it to both of them:

View attachment 249265

pj
chgo

Very simply put and very effective....the diamonds on the table easily denote the reference angles.......the most important things you can do with them is know.....if you are playing a game such as One Pocket that shooting pocket speed at close to those half way points works pretty good.....if you are cinching the banks at a higher speed an addition needs to be made to the angle.....ie...a shot with a half way point of.....1.50 would need to be shot at 1.25 if coming out of 3....or coming out of 2 ....shoot at .75...nicely made point....great diagrams...

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336Robin:thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegaminpool@yahoo.com
 

RunoutJJ

Professional Banger
Silver Member
I use the Isosceles Triangle method from Phil's book. It varies on certain shots and a little trial and error with english, draw and follow. Mostly I use it to find a certain area of the rail to kick from and then apply my sense of "feel" (fine tune the exact point of contact) to make the hit. Its really hard to explain in text and would be easier to see in a diagram form. Depending on the difficulty of the kick I usually hit the object ball 90% of the time and make it or come really close 50% of the time. Its not the most solid method on kicking but it works for me :embarrassed2:
 
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dardusm

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To all of you , fellow players,
here a subject that I feel weak in!

Any of us, I'm sure, is more or less aware of the various systems of aimig to rails for kicking/banking(such like Sid,2 rails parallel lines, 3 rails counting, fixed point for 3 rails...etc etc), but personally I find it hard to remember/use while in a game!!!

Maybe just a lack of experience / specific training, maybe lazyness......but I'm wondering if any of you has developped an "easy shortcut" to use when "in the heat" of a match!

Thanks for your imput!! :grin:

I have the same issue as you do. I can't seem to remember the systems in competition because I don't use them that often. I'll practice to get a certain system down and then it all goes out the window when it's time to use it in competition. For one rail kicks, If I don't "see" or "feel" the kick based on past experience, I will will walk to the rail and visualize angle in and angle out to find the reference point on the rail. It has worked very well for me. I'm hitting a very high percentage of one rail kicks. Of course, you will need to account for speed and English but angle in and angle out is a very good guideline.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
I have the same issue as you do. I can't seem to remember the systems in competition because I don't use them that often. I'll practice to get a certain system down and then it all goes out the window when it's time to use it in competition. For one rail kicks, If I don't "see" or "feel" the kick based on past experience, I will will walk to the rail and visualize angle in and angle out to find the reference point on the rail. It has worked very well for me. I'm hitting a very high percentage of one rail kicks. Of course, you will need to account for speed and English but angle in and angle out is a very good guideline.

Angle in an out with planned deduction for me is the only way...I dont hit em all but I dont sweat em either...
 

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a firm believer in both systems and feel when it comes to kicking/banking. When I was playing 3 cushion a ton, I learned a lot about cueball and object ball reactions just from banging the balls around while learning. I also learned dozens of systems to help estimate all sorts of shots - normal 3 cushion shots, 2 rail umbrella systems, dead ball systems, etc. Many of these are useful in pool as well, and I use them all the time.

Ultimately though, you will need to understand how hitting the cue ball with different speeds and spins affects the lines, as well as how table conditions do the same. When you combine the system knowledge with the "feel" knowledge and learn to have confidence in it then you will no longer feel out of sorts when staring down a shot in competition.


I remember learning the Corner 5 3 cushion system. Even though it's simple math (CB - third rail = first rail), memorizing the track lines and rail numbers, learning to estimate cue ball positions, etc. takes some time. I would spend 30 seconds or more over a shot trying to figure it out. But with just a bit of practice you can reduce that to 1 - 2 seconds, almost seamless, not to mention over time you build up quite a bit of intuition based on all of the system shots and you can just see the lines easily.

No substitute for practice. Focus on a few systems at a time, dedicate time to each one during each practice session until they become ingrained, and you won't have that feeling of losing confidence during a game. Worse case you miss and figure out where you went wrong - bad calculation, bad stroke, didn't account for conditions, etc.


In case you want some more reference materials, I did a series of articles years ago, they can be found at poolstudent.com, just go down the right side to the Instruction link. You'll find multiple methods for 1 and 2 rail kicks and a write up on System Sid. Someday I'll finish what I started... :)

Scott
 
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