Controlling The Mass

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Great article, nice post!



Mass is only one factor.



What does he say about velocity?



randyg



Hey Randy. Sorry to
Take
So long getting back to you. My coach is off the coast of
Maine fishing for tuna.
I got a message from him last night that may answer you question.
Talk to you later tonight.
John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have often felt when I was playing my best that I was simply starting the cue on a forward swing and then letting the cue's weight pull it forward, and that my hand/arm was being "pulled" through the shotline by the cue's weight.

Such that if you attempt to "push" the cue forward, you will invariably guide it to the left or right, as it is nearly impossible for us to drive our hand/arm in a straight line, but if the cue is "falling forward", then the hand is naturally pulled in a straight line.

A Slip Stroke can help.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Physics: If I hit an object ball with a cue, can the ball go faster than the speed that I'm stroking the cue?

Yes, the ball can. Assuming an elastic collision, both kinetic energy and momentum of the system must be conserved. Focusing on the small period of time surrounding the hit of the ball, obeying these two conservation laws means that the ball can shoot off with a much higher velocity than the cue, because the cue has a much larger mass (and benefits from the mass of the person holding the cue).

Yes. I think about 10% increase is a fair guess.

randyg
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes. I think about 10% increase is a fair guess.

randyg

That's an interesting question. If the mass (weight ok in this case) of the cue (ignoring the player gripping the cue) is 19 oz and the mass of the ball is 6 oz then the cue ball should travel at 19/6 times the speed of the cue. That would make the cue ball initial velocity over 300% greater than the speed of the cue, not 10% greater. Of course with the usual caveats, friction, have to hit dead center ball with no spin...

What is interesting to me is whether anybody has ever bothered to measure cue speed just before cue ball contact.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
Yup. That's what I'm saying Russ. Let the mass (which is behind the grip hand) of the cue do the work. The mass can be allowed to travel as far foreword as you let it.
John
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So what are some good exercises/drills to develop a feel for this?

I think the cue, feeling heavier at the butt end.... The thought of pulling the butt toward
your OB contact point with the back of your hand, would help to develop a feel for this.

You might try pulling the cue with the crease between your thumb & 1st finger if there's
tension in your fingers. Your stroke should be straight if your hand pulls torward the OB.

IMO
.
 
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Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
That's an interesting question. If the mass (weight ok in this case) of the cue (ignoring the player gripping the cue) is 19 oz and the mass of the ball is 6 oz then the cue ball should travel at 19/6 times the speed of the cue. That would make the cue ball initial velocity over 300% greater than the speed of the cue, not 10% greater. Of course with the usual caveats, friction, have to hit dead center ball with no spin...

What is interesting to me is whether anybody has ever bothered to measure cue speed just before cue ball contact.

I think dr dave has some videos on that subject.

.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Okay first I need to add a comment from my coach concerning the OP. (from a message I received on my Iphone last night)

Controlling the Mass:

Begin:

Hey John, the post is fine with me. I take it as a compliment.
Please just add that it was just a draft and poorly written. If you want to add to the post I would say that it's easier to strike the QB clean and pure with a short stroke technique.
I believe it's easier to control cue ball speed, especially playing the cue ball from center / down.
If you play above center it's just an eyelash up with a little up tick or up stroking where the bottom of the tip is your friend.

End edit of OP



Hey Randy. Sorry to take
so long getting back to you. My coach is off the coast of
Maine fishing for tuna.

I got a message from him last night that may answer you question.
Talk to you later tonight.
John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Randy,

From my coach:

Velocity would be too much to get into right now. (he's fishing for Tuna)

This is a short version. I will just say this, lose the word cue speed and think of momentum. Don't peel the rubber just start out in first gear.

One more thing regarding velocity. it has been my experience for students to grasp the word "momentum" rather quickly over cue speed, velocity and acceleration.
Once they have a smoother transition to forward delivery and begin to build their momentum I start throwing in acceleration and cue speed a little at a time.
Also to me, the follow thru is more important in the beginning of the delivery.

End Randy's question

One poster asked a question on how to practice or a drill that would help them with Controlling the Mass. I'll get to that in the morning.

John :)
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think dr dave has some videos on that subject.

.

I was interested to find a video where they measured stick speed. It immediately became obvious that the cue does not impart all of its momentum to the cue ball. A cue traveling at say 5.5 mph will only drop to say 3.5 mph on a typical shot. Much easier to figure out the cue stick vs cue ball speed empirically (ie, just measure what happens on the table) rather than trying to make assumptions and calculate it. I suspect we'd probably find that Randy is right.

Thanks.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So what are some good exercises/drills to develop a feel for this?

My thoughts on controlling the mass of the cue go something like this.
Watch this golf instruction video, it's the same principle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W5L2qsTekY&t=130s
His body and grip are way ahead of the golf club mass

It's like my forearm is out ahead of my grip hand which has the mass behind it. Which makes it look like I'm bending my wrist backwards.

You will notice that the pro's do this very well. To the untrained eye it would appear that they are using their wrist to shoot. Not true. When you watch Alex or Shane shoot watch their wrist. The wrist is bending backwards because the forearm is ahead of their grip hand and is pulling the mass of the forward. When they are down on a shot and aiming and getting a feel for the shot the wrist is moving back and forth with very little forearm movement. When they pull back their arm the wrist is cocked backwards and the forearm is ahead of the grip hand on delivery.

Learning to develop this new skill will take some time, could be months depending on how many balls you can hit everyday. If you can, try to hit 100-200 balls everyday.

The drill I would recommend is to shoot straight in shots diagonally from one corner pocket to the other. Start with the balls a couple of feet apart. Use center cue ball and then use high spin. You can increase the distance between the balls as you feel more comfortable with your stroking mechanics.

We all know that Earl has used an extension on his cue for quit a while, not only did this add more mass it also increased the distance of the mass behind his grip hand. And Earl plays golf so I would think that he understands the benefits for the cue extension. Shane, after visiting and competing with Earl started using an extension. I think Earl had a talk with Shane. Who knows, it works though.

Those folks that play golf should catch on to this very quickly.

Hope this helps.

John :)
 
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Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
.
1pj... Just for a push/pull cue experiment.. no CB needed.. Get down into a shooting position with your 1st finger against the rail.
Push the cue putting pressure on your finger. Pull the cue putting pressure on your finger. Does your shoulder pressure change?

.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
.
1pj... Just for a push/pull cue experiment.. no CB needed.. Get down into a shooting position with your 1st finger against the rail.
Push the cue putting pressure on your finger. Pull the cue putting pressure on your finger. Does your shoulder pressure change?

.

Hey Carl

Pushing the cue adds unwanted stress in the arm and shoulder. Pulling the cue mass forward takes all of that away.
Actually now that I think about it, the lower bicep (the muscle that closes the arm) is taken almost out of the picture all together because once you get the mass started forward you have to stop it somewhere along the line. Like at the cue ball. :)

John :)
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In an effort to know what Earl and Shane are feeling with cue extensions on their cues I decided to build one.

I build my own slip-on cue extensions to make the cue longer for tough shots to get to shots.

I modified one of my extensions by changing the length and weight until it felt more comfortable. My extensions are made from a very light weight material and are weighted internally. Nice little home brew project.

I now know why Earl and Shane use extensions on their cues. It really adds a noticeable feel of mass behind my grip hand. I like it and will continue to use it

My cue is now 73" long and the balance point is at about 14" (instead of it's normal 22" balance point) on the cue (from the cue butt cap. Not from the end of the extension)

John :)
 

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LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was interested to find a video where they measured stick speed. It immediately became obvious that the cue does not impart all of its momentum to the cue ball. A cue traveling at say 5.5 mph will only drop to say 3.5 mph on a typical shot. Much easier to figure out the cue stick vs cue ball speed empirically (ie, just measure what happens on the table) rather than trying to make assumptions and calculate it. I suspect we'd probably find that Randy is right.

Thanks.

Then the leather tip compresses and absorbs some of the impact...:smile:

I have never double hit the CB on a hard break shot.
 
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Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In an effort to know what Earl and Shane are feeling with cue extensions on their cues I decided to build one.

I build my own slip-on cue extensions to make the cue longer for tough shots to get to shots.
I modified one of my extensions by changing the length and weight until it felt more comfortable. My extensions are made from a very light weight material and are weighted internally. Nice little home brew project.
I now know why Earl and Shane use extensions on their cues. It really adds a noticeable feel of mass behind my grip hand. I like it and will continue to use it
My cue is now 73" long and the balance point is at about 14" (instead of it's normal 22" balance point) on the cue (from the cue butt cap. Not from the end of the extension)
John :)
Very clever and functional.
I like it.
Are those PVC plumbing nipples? If you don't mind tipping the secret, I'm going to make one for myself.
That's a smart idea and saves a lot of money.
(plus it has to drive the eyeballers just NUTS............."what is that?...where did he get that?.....etc. etc.") That in itself delights me to no end. :)
If you don't want to put it here in public, that's cool. If you'll reveal the secrets, just post it to me in private message.
Regards,
Lowenstein
 

gordml

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Carl

Pushing the cue adds unwanted stress in the arm and shoulder. Pulling the cue mass forward takes all of that away.
Actually now that I think about it, the lower bicep (the muscle that closes the arm) is taken almost out of the picture all together because once you get the mass started forward you have to stop it somewhere along the line. Like at the cue ball. :)

John :)

This wrist issue is something that's always been confusing and a somewhat contentious.Many different opinions on this even among instructors.
For me its easier to shoot straight if the wrist remains steady.
Some say that flicking your wrist gives a lot more power (Filipino style - aka Bustamente)
That this "cocking" business is to keep the wrist locked - while others say it should move and "uncock" during the follow through. :confused:

If its not necessary or there is no real advantage in using the wrist maybe it should just relax.
How about this?
The wrist joint is loose and flexible - but dont actually use the muscles in your wrist or your hand. The wrist and hand only hold the cue while the movement is cause by pulling the forearm forward.
Is that it?
 
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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very clever and functional.

I like it.

Are those PVC plumbing nipples? If you don't mind tipping the secret, I'm going to make one for myself.

That's a smart idea and saves a lot of money.

(plus it has to drive the eyeballers just NUTS............."what is that?...where did he get that?.....etc. etc.") That in itself delights me to no end. :)

If you don't want to put it here in public, that's cool. If you'll reveal the secrets, just post it to me in private message.

Regards,

Lowenstein


Finally home.

Good eye, Yes everything is from the plumbing isle at Lowes. Cost a whopping $5.00

I'm working on a new model to allow for weights to be added as needed internally. Got it figured out just need to go to Lowes and pick up the material.
I'll probably spend $6.00 this time. :)

John
 
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Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm at work right. I'll get back to you tonight.
John
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd enjoy hearing how you made yours.
I just completed building one this morning for my Predator 314. I used PVC tubing and a rubber chair leg end piece for the butt. Now to paint it hot pink, so 'they' will think I'm gay...that really pisses them off. I enjoy it while I take their money. (I even use a pink glove):eek: If I could get away with it without getting my ass kicked, I'd wear lipstick to REALLY send them into orbit. (mind games, you know, mind games where most of the battle is really won).:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
Friend, you are dead on the money about that giving some extra fine balance to the cue stick.
I don't care if it's called "mass" or whatever, I know it sure plays better for me. Especially on those long full table straight ins where there's a tendency to wiggle the stick a little. My stake horse likes it too....and she don't usually like NUTHIN'.
Strickland and SVB don't make bad bets....when those pros speak, it's smart to watch and listen up.
I can't wait to hear the laughs and jeers at the Moose Lodge Tournaments when I bust this thing out on them. How delightful....love it.:wink:::wink:
I made a picture of it and may post it here. (of course the know-it-alls will giggle and snicker as usual)....you can imagine how much sleep I will lose over that
Later.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Finally home.

Good eye, Yes everything is from the plumbing isle at Lowes. Cost a whopping $5.00

I'm working on a new model to allow for weights to be added as needed internally. Got it figured out just need to go to Lowes and pick up the material.
I'll probably spend $6.00 this time. :)

John

I'd enjoy hearing how you made yours.
I just completed building one this morning for my Predator 314. I used PVC tubing and a rubber chair leg end piece for the butt. Now to paint it hot pink, so 'they' will think I'm gay...that really pisses them off. I enjoy it while I take their money. (I even use a pink glove):eek: If I could get away with it without getting my ass kicked, I'd wear lipstick to REALLY send them into orbit. (mind games, you know, mind games where most of the battle is really won).:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
Friend, you are dead on the money about that giving some extra fine balance to the cue stick.
I don't care if it's called "mass" or whatever, I know it sure plays better for me. Especially on those long full table straight ins where there's a tendency to wiggle the stick a little. My stake horse likes it too....and she don't usually like NUTHIN'.
Strickland and SVB don't make bad bets....when those pros speak, it's smart to watch and listen up.
I can't wait to hear the laughs and jeers at the Moose Lodge Tournaments when I bust this thing out on them. How delightful....love it.:wink:::wink:
I made a picture of it and may post it here. (of course the know-it-alls will giggle and snicker as usual)....you can imagine how much sleep I will lose over that
Later.

The weighting of the extension is at the very end. When down in the shooting position the weight feels like it's way behind your grip hand.

If you watch the players from the Philippines you will notice thyat many of them hold the cue in the middle of the wrap. Doing this allows for a 8" to 9" weight behind their grip hand. That's why when they are down on a shot you will see very little forearm movement just the wrist going back and forth. They can feel the mass behind their grip hand.

Oh, if your going to paint it pink why not go all out and put some black poca-dots on it.:)

Gotta have supper. Be back later.

John
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The weighting of the extension is at the very end. When down in the shooting position the weight feels like it's way behind your grip hand.
If you watch the players from the Philippines you will notice thyat many of them hold the cue in the middle of the wrap. Doing this allows for a 8" to 9" weight behind their grip hand. That's why when they are down on a shot you will see very little forearm movement just the wrist going back and forth. They can feel the mass behind their grip hand.
Oh, if your going to paint it pink why not go all out and put some black poca-dots on it.:)
Gotta have supper. Be back later.
John
Yesssssssssssssssss !!
A MASTERpiece of 'torment psychology'...dammit why didn't I think of it myself. *Grrrrr at self for not thinking of that.
Polka Dots it shall have....and maybe hang a feather off the end on a little rubber band.
Now all I need is a decal from the Gay Liberation Front (I assume there is such a thing) to stick on the side of my case.
My wife sez: "What're you going to say if some closet gay guy makes a pass at you?":eek:
Answer: I will snarl menacingly and quote some of that old song from the Georgia Satellites........."Don't give me no lines and keep your hands to yourself". :rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
 
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LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Follow hit:

The cue tip impacts the ball and the ball accelerates away from the tip and then the ball ceases to accelerate with a small separation between the tip and ball.
Does the cue and tip slow down at impact creating the separation instead?
Thereafter, the cue tip and ball travel at the same speed.

Draw hit:
The separation is greater than with the draw/low hit than the follow/high hit - less friction on the cloth or slippage?
The acceleration from rest or zero continues after separation if still accelerating for an instant.
The "instant" is of little consequence so I yield to Randy - the ball slows down after separation.

http://dbkcues.ru/2011/05/28/new-portion-of-the-hs-video-follow-and-draw-shot/?lang=en
 
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