another deflection thread

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Establishing reference point on cue so you can orient it the same way each shot...top stays on top, bottom on bottom, etc...
I used to do that when I played with a wooden shaft. I made a small mark on the "top" of the shaft by the tip. One opponent wanted me to be disqualified for improper use of equipment or an aiming device or some such. The TD told him to shut up and go back and play.
 

strmanglr scott

All about Focus
Silver Member
Establishing reference point on cue so you can orient it the same way each shot...top stays on top, bottom on bottom, etc...

You hit with the same side up all the time?

I know people's opinions on the Muecci black dot shaft, that is what I play with. I never worry about the orientation of the shaft. When I first got the cue I made a decision right then, that was too much to worry about. I also thought my cue tip would wear strange. I've never noticed a difference in shots regarding cue orientation.

I saw a black dot on a Muecci with the laminate pieces vertical once, all others I've seen the laminates are horizontal.

I've never seen or heard anything from Muecci that the cue should be oriented a certain way.


Now as for deflection, it's doesn't exist to me. I don't think about it, so it does not exist in my mind when playing. I know what it is, understand the physics. I never heard of deflection until I became a member of this site. Had a decent game before I knew what it was. Now that I know what it is, I still have a decent game, it hasn't changed the level of my play.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not intentionally, but I do sometimes tweak its orientation while shooting, coz I swear the shaft looks warped at the end.

I think it is just light trickery on my home table.

I am not sure if/ if not my rolling results in a consistent end point and it never particularly struck me as necessary to know.
You hit with the same side up all the time?

I know people's opinions on the Muecci black dot shaft, that is what I play with. I never worry about the orientation of the shaft. When I first got the cue I made a decision right then, that was too much to worry about. I also thought my cue tip would wear strange. I've never noticed a difference in shots regarding cue orientation.

I saw a black dot on a Muecci with the laminate pieces vertical once, all others I've seen the laminates are horizontal.

I've never seen or heard anything from Muecci that the cue should be oriented a certain way.


Now as for deflection, it's doesn't exist to me. I don't think about it, so it does not exist in my mind when playing. I know what it is, understand the physics. I never heard of deflection until I became a member of this site. Had a decent game before I knew what it was. Now that I know what it is, I still have a decent game, it hasn't changed the level of my play.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
consistency

Hu, can you expand on what you mean with "index their cues for maximum consistency" I haven't heard this term, and I am wondering if it is referring to something I know under a different term/reference.

inline with the thread, I prefer solid maple. i actually find that using the natural deflection to get whitely around that just barely hooked shot to be very useful.



Natural wood shafts are stiffer in one direction than another, stronger too. Started when playing off the wall, the cues with the best tips and best shaft areas were usually that way because they were warped and not played with as much. I always turned the warp so the tip bowed upwards, some prefer it bowed down. From there, I went to turning the wood grain vertical on better shafts so they were stiffer top to bottom and slightly more limber side to side.

Wood is very individual and some is almost as stiff one way as the other, other wood it makes a big difference. Taking the variable out might make a slight difference and the difference between winning or losing might be one or two shots.

We try to get everything else perfect, might as well orient the cue the same way every time too. Not going to make a big difference but it will make a slight difference sometimes and it doesn't cost a thing. Orienting the stick, indexing it to the same place, becomes part of your preshot routine.

Hu
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Find a cue you really like the hit of... settle on the tips you

play the best with... AND DON'T CHANGE. Keep playing

with the same equipment... hit a million balls... you'll know

what the cue will do and where whitey will go.



$.02
It really is this simple.

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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
The sequel will be "Deflecting Reflections" -- about how use side spin on kick shots.

As for the marketing stuff.... Several times I hung out a little at a vendor's booth at various expos and tournaments. They were selling low-squirt shafts and had a table to demonstrate them on. The had a few different models and I think joint variations so customers could try them out. I must have watched ten or so customers in total try the shafts.

None of the customers ever used side spin. They had no idea what the shafts were about. Maybe they never used side spin in their normal play so why would they try it in a demo?:confused: Some of them bought shafts then and there.

The bottom line for me from that: The vast majority of pool players are unaware of the vast majority of the game, whether that's about the details of shots, the rules, the history, or the players. For better or worse, that's who you have to market to because that is by far the largest part of the market.

As for the low-squirt stuff.... I've used a low-squirt (AKA deflection) shaft since about 1980. I liked it because it hit the ball straighter. The cause of squirt was not widely understood until about 1998 but even before that understanding it was clear to me that less was better.
Good story. And well-stated bottom line. And I agree that less is better for most people. For those who doubt this or want to learn more, see:

advantages of LD shafts

Regards,
Dave
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
I used to do that when I played with a wooden shaft. I made a small mark on the "top" of the shaft by the tip. One opponent wanted me to be disqualified for improper use of equipment or an aiming device or some such. The TD told him to shut up and go back and play.

I knew it... I wondered if I was seeing what I thought I was while you were making shots with the good doctor on vepp.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I knew it... I wondered if I was seeing what I thought I was while you were making shots with the good doctor on vepp.
He also aligns his vision center in the wrong place and strokes crooked to compensate (see the VEPP video excerpt on YouTube) ... but he sure does it consistently well (as described in the video description of the YouTube video).

Regards,
Dave
 

hurricane145

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Deflection does exist and has always existed. However it is mainly a marketing tool used by companies to sell a product. First is was the LD shaft and now the carbon fiber shafts. Do they actually help? Very little in my opinion if any. Is there anything wrong with this? No.

Companies have used marketing to sell products for many years. You see it in every commercial on tv. Almost everybody that plays pool owns a couple of cues so they don’t really need to buy more, so they have to convince people something is better to keep people buying things they don’t really need.

Carbon fiber shafts don’t dent so they are better than wood in that aspect. I just prefer wood. The cf shafts that I have tried I simply just don’t like them. If someone else does I’m not knocking them, everyone is different.

Cue companies aren’t the only companies using this ploy to get people to buy things they don’t need. This phone I used to type this doesn’t do anything the one I had 5 years didn’t do. Technology is great but a pair of shoes isn’t the reason an athlete is good at a certain sport.

Marketing is all anout coming up with a product and then creating a need for it.
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of course it makes it easier - estimating a smaller adjustment to within a few millimeters is easier than estimating a larger adjustment to within a few millimeters. I don't think there's a sensible argument otherwise.

pj
chgo
That's not true. I've hit a million with both HD and Id. The adjustments are just as easy to make with either, they are simply different.

I play with the standard maple shaft I've had for twenty years because I love the hit and am exactly as accurate with it as I am any of the ld shafts I have played with.

If telling yourself it's easier actually makes it easier for you than so be it.

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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Just having less deflection in the equation does not make it easier, just different.

...estimating a smaller adjustment to within a few millimeters is easier than estimating a larger adjustment to within a few millimeters. I don't think there's a sensible argument otherwise.

That's not true. I've hit a million with both HD and Id. The adjustments are just as easy to make with either, they are simply different.
I believe it seems the same to you, and you may actually miss no more often with either within the usual margin for error.

But it's objectively easier to estimate a shorter distance than a longer one to the same degree of accuracy. For an exaggerated example, imagine estimating the length of a line that's a foot long vs. one that's 1/2" long, both to within 1/4" of accuracy.

pj
chgo
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's not true. I've hit a million with both HD and Id. The adjustments are just as easy to make with either, they are simply different.
Adjustments with an HD shaft are larger than adjustments with an LD shaft. Because of this, errors in adjustment will also be larger with an HD shaft. For more info, see the article and other info here:

advantages of using an LD shaft

Regards,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
IBut it's objectively easier to estimate a shorter distance than a longer one to the same degree of accuracy. For an exaggerated example, imagine estimating the length of a line that's a foot long vs. one that's 1/2" long, both to within 1/4" of accuracy.
Another good analogy for squirt in pool is a crosswind in archery. Less is better for aiming over a wide range of distances.

Regards,
Dave
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Adjustments with an HD shaft are larger than adjustments with an LD shaft. Because of this, errors in adjustment will also be larger with an HD shaft. For more info, see the article and other info here:



advantages of using an LD shaft



Regards,

Dave
The errors in adjustments simply don't have to be there. Leaving room for error is telling yourself you don't have to be accurate.

We have the ability to be just as accurate with any level of squirt, therefore it is just as easy to shoot with any level of squirt.

One can play however they want. I'm not going to search for the magic piece of equipment that allows me to be the most inaccurate and think that means real improvement.

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erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another good analogy for squirt in pool is a crosswind in archery. Less is better for aiming over a wide range of distances.

Regards,
Dave
It's an apt analogy to a point. A cross wind in archery would be far less predictable than squirt, not to mention dealing with gravity.

I'm not arguing against "LD" shafts. I am arguing against the fact that squirt is the boogeyman and has to be engineered out of the game. A zero squirt shaft really wouldn't be any easier for a well trained cueist.

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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
A zero squirt shaft really wouldn't be any easier for a well trained cueist.
Even if that was true (it's technically not), less squirt makes it easier to become "well trained".

Your argument is that squirt is less of an issue if you've already learned to deal with lots of it. Sure, but that doesn't make less squirt a marketing gimmick. It's a valuable improvement for most players.

pj
chgo
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Even if that was true (it's technically not), less squirt makes it easier to become "well trained".

Your argument is that squirt is less of an issue if you've already learned to deal with lots of it. Sure, but that doesn't make less squirt a marketing gimmick. It's a valuable improvement for most players.

pj
chgo
Especially for beginner-level players. It shortens the learning curve when learning to use spin.
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not in my experience. I've seen many players come and go in my 29 years of playing. I'm not seeing that the learning curve is any different with the ld shafts.

The deflection is not what holds most players back, it's cueing errors. I find fixing cueing errors is far, far more beneficial than finding a shaft that allows you to be less accurate.

In theory I get your point and I agree. Decreasing the range of one variable of the equation decreases the possible number of outcomes. Of the variables, squirt, swerve and throw, squirt is the easiest to accurately overcome regardless of the amount of it. When the rubber meets the road defection of any amount is the least of the worries for a beginner. It's actually the most reliable component of the equation.

Now if you make balls and cloth that are impervious to atmospheric conditions and swerve and throw with the same predictability as squirt, you have my attention.

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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Now if you make balls and cloth that are impervious to atmospheric conditions and swerve and throw with the same predictability as squirt, you have my attention.
Yes, swerve is the most difficult of the "aiming variables", due to its dependence on so many other variables - amount of spin, shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, cloth/ball conditions. Maybe more?

Throw also depends on several variables, even though it's a smaller effect.

I agree that squirt, even though it's the largest effect, is the most predictable of these and so the easiest to deal with - but it's the one we can improve with equipment, so why not do that?

pj
chgo
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Adjustments with an HD shaft are larger than adjustments with an LD shaft. Because of this, errors in adjustment will also be larger with an HD shaft. For more info, see the article and other info here:

advantages of using an LD shaft
The errors in adjustments simply don't have to be there. Leaving room for error is telling yourself you don't have to be accurate.
Error is unavoidable. It is a fact of life. Even the top pros have aiming errors on practically every shot (i.e., their aim is rarely absolutely perfect). If the errors are small enough, the OB still enters the pocket; but when the errors are larger, then misses occur.

Regards,
Dave
 
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