how do they play??
whats the difference
p.s by wavy red i mean this cue ball
http://www.ozonebilliards.com/suarprocueba.html
whats the difference
p.s by wavy red i mean this cue ball
http://www.ozonebilliards.com/suarprocueba.html
red dot/blue dot/measles /wavy red cueballs
- Thread starter bbb
- Start date
Most of these cue balls are made using the same resin formula or something really close. The principal difference, aside from possible variations in diameter, will be in weight.
The tolerance difference for pool balls are as follows: diameter 2.25" (+.005") or 15.715cm (+.127mm) and the weight can be 5.5 ozs. to 6.0 ozs. or 156 to 170 grams.
The weight specification for pool balls is just not tight and it allows for weight differences which is just dumb. So the different types of cue balls only have to weigh at least 156 grams and not exceed 170 grams to be legal. And keep in mind there is no requirement that all the balls in the set be the identical weight; only that all of the balls fall within the specified weight range. Imagine playing a rack or set with a variance of up to 1/2 oz. on a object ball. or several object balls, and off course, the cue ball weight difference as well.
Anyone ever wonder why sometimes you might not be drawing the ball as well tonight vs.last night or maybe from playing on a different table. Do you think all the object balls in the rack at the pool hall all weigh the same...........Duh? The owners of The Break Room in Fresno, CA had me test some of their sets of poll balls..........it's amazing what one can learn........of course, there was variation but nonetheless all sets were completely within the above specifications.
The best set I've tested are my two Brunswick Centennial Sets (Made by Aramith). Aside from having what I consider to be the best appearance, the tolerance was simply amazing. The Centennial Cue Ball & Measles Ball both weigh 169 grams and all the object balls (1-15) weigh 168 grams in both my Centennial sets. The poster asked what's the difference in cue balls? Below are the pertinent weight specs; conversion factor is 28.375 grams per ounce. The grams scale is a much more accurate weight measurement than ounces.
Aramith Measles Ball: 169 grams
Blue Circle Centennial: 169 grams
Red Logo Aramith: 170 grams
Blue Circle Cue Ball: 204 grams
Red Circle Cue Ball: 157 grams
Plain White Cue Ball: 203 grams
These weights were determined using an electronic scale which is regularly calibrated. The different type cue balls were sampled at The Break Room in Fresno, CA. Without a doubt, the ideal is to play with object balls all the same weight and of course, a cue ball that has the identical weight as the object balls. The laws of physics are then more equally applicable and predictable on any given shot. Ever wonder why sometimes at the pool halls you might not be drawing the cue ball as well, or the follow shot comes up short or maybe too long, i.e., cue ball inertia. How about long stop shots and tangent line distance, or bank shots........hit a shot with different weight cue balls and/ or/both different weight object balls, and you'll learn firsthand the real difference in cue ball position attainment and also shots just missed from rattled object balls in the pocket.
Anyway, those are the cold, hard facts about pool ball weights and the laws of physics and geometry are heavily influenced by mismatched (different) weights of the cue ball and object balls. It's also the reason why players favor a specific type cue ball and it's understandable because their cue stroke is better suited to the weight of one type cue ball versus another.
The tolerance difference for pool balls are as follows: diameter 2.25" (+.005") or 15.715cm (+.127mm) and the weight can be 5.5 ozs. to 6.0 ozs. or 156 to 170 grams.
The weight specification for pool balls is just not tight and it allows for weight differences which is just dumb. So the different types of cue balls only have to weigh at least 156 grams and not exceed 170 grams to be legal. And keep in mind there is no requirement that all the balls in the set be the identical weight; only that all of the balls fall within the specified weight range. Imagine playing a rack or set with a variance of up to 1/2 oz. on a object ball. or several object balls, and off course, the cue ball weight difference as well.
Anyone ever wonder why sometimes you might not be drawing the ball as well tonight vs.last night or maybe from playing on a different table. Do you think all the object balls in the rack at the pool hall all weigh the same...........Duh? The owners of The Break Room in Fresno, CA had me test some of their sets of poll balls..........it's amazing what one can learn........of course, there was variation but nonetheless all sets were completely within the above specifications.
The best set I've tested are my two Brunswick Centennial Sets (Made by Aramith). Aside from having what I consider to be the best appearance, the tolerance was simply amazing. The Centennial Cue Ball & Measles Ball both weigh 169 grams and all the object balls (1-15) weigh 168 grams in both my Centennial sets. The poster asked what's the difference in cue balls? Below are the pertinent weight specs; conversion factor is 28.375 grams per ounce. The grams scale is a much more accurate weight measurement than ounces.
Aramith Measles Ball: 169 grams
Blue Circle Centennial: 169 grams
Red Logo Aramith: 170 grams
Blue Circle Cue Ball: 204 grams
Red Circle Cue Ball: 157 grams
Plain White Cue Ball: 203 grams
These weights were determined using an electronic scale which is regularly calibrated. The different type cue balls were sampled at The Break Room in Fresno, CA. Without a doubt, the ideal is to play with object balls all the same weight and of course, a cue ball that has the identical weight as the object balls. The laws of physics are then more equally applicable and predictable on any given shot. Ever wonder why sometimes at the pool halls you might not be drawing the cue ball as well, or the follow shot comes up short or maybe too long, i.e., cue ball inertia. How about long stop shots and tangent line distance, or bank shots........hit a shot with different weight cue balls and/ or/both different weight object balls, and you'll learn firsthand the real difference in cue ball position attainment and also shots just missed from rattled object balls in the pocket.
Anyway, those are the cold, hard facts about pool ball weights and the laws of physics and geometry are heavily influenced by mismatched (different) weights of the cue ball and object balls. It's also the reason why players favor a specific type cue ball and it's understandable because their cue stroke is better suited to the weight of one type cue ball versus another.
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So the Blue Circle & Plain White were not even close to legal ??
Crazy heavy 200g ?? yes ???
Cheers.
Nope.....the specs as I know them to be are quite clear........so the math becomes pretty straightforward.
454 grams = 1 lb.
1 lb. = 16 ozs.
454 grams/16ozs = 28.375 grams per ounce
max wt. object/cue ball = 6 oz. x 28.375 grams = 170.25 grams
The maximum weight of any pool ball to conform to specs cannot exceed 170.25 grams.........and that's it.
The minimum weight of any pool ball is 5.5 ozs (x 28.375grams) = 156.06 grams..........and that's it.
And did you know that tournament pool balls can only be cleaned before the tournament with soap and water and pool balls that have been waxed or polished must have the gloss finish removed by having the pool balls cleaned with soap and water. Not even Windex or 409 or anything like that is allowed to be used to clean the pool balls. This is because polished or waxed pool balls have the minimal amount of throw which during the tournament gradually would increase more dramatically as the pool balls acquired a film on the surface from table dust, hand oils, chalk, etc. It's a proven fact that newly polished pool balls are much more difficult to throw than after a few hours of play.
So tournament officials do not want the order of the draw of the field to be favor players that played later rather than earlier under the theory that the earlier players would be play their matches with pool balls more difficult to control than with matches played later that are entirely scheduled at the outset of the tournament based upon the luck of the draw......just some addt'l FYI.
454 grams = 1 lb.
1 lb. = 16 ozs.
454 grams/16ozs = 28.375 grams per ounce
max wt. object/cue ball = 6 oz. x 28.375 grams = 170.25 grams
The maximum weight of any pool ball to conform to specs cannot exceed 170.25 grams.........and that's it.
The minimum weight of any pool ball is 5.5 ozs (x 28.375grams) = 156.06 grams..........and that's it.
And did you know that tournament pool balls can only be cleaned before the tournament with soap and water and pool balls that have been waxed or polished must have the gloss finish removed by having the pool balls cleaned with soap and water. Not even Windex or 409 or anything like that is allowed to be used to clean the pool balls. This is because polished or waxed pool balls have the minimal amount of throw which during the tournament gradually would increase more dramatically as the pool balls acquired a film on the surface from table dust, hand oils, chalk, etc. It's a proven fact that newly polished pool balls are much more difficult to throw than after a few hours of play.
So tournament officials do not want the order of the draw of the field to be favor players that played later rather than earlier under the theory that the earlier players would be play their matches with pool balls more difficult to control than with matches played later that are entirely scheduled at the outset of the tournament based upon the luck of the draw......just some addt'l FYI.
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Do you think this was a 'rogue' blue circle ball ? (or are all the blue circle cue balls around 200g & therefore 'non legal' ?)
I think I remember some posts in another thread about blue circle balls being among the hardest to draw with - at 200g that would prolly explain it ?.
I think I remember some posts in another thread about blue circle balls being among the hardest to draw with - at 200g that would prolly explain it ?.
You don't happen to have weighed a blue dot Dynamo ball by any chance? Those suckers weighed a ton!
I 've never weighed a blue dot Dynamo cue ball. I do carry in my auto's trunk a electronic scale and calipers in case I ever encounter a situation where I want to verify a cue's weight, shaft size or even pool balls for that matter.
There's lots of different version cue balls and the specs I quoted are from the WPA (World Pool-Billiard Association). I suspect that a lot of the various cue balls in pool halls do not comply with these specs and consequently, these cue balls understandably perform differently due to the variation in cue ball weights. If there's any physics professors out there, they can more succinctly explain the significance of different mass weight objects striking each other, the transfer of energy process and resultant influence on what the cue ball does when it's heavier or lighter than the object ball it struck.
Now think about all the times you played a match and the cue ball just didn't go where you wanted it to or the cue ball seemed to come up short or long on position.........could it be the weight of the cue ball or object balls???????????
There's lots of different version cue balls and the specs I quoted are from the WPA (World Pool-Billiard Association). I suspect that a lot of the various cue balls in pool halls do not comply with these specs and consequently, these cue balls understandably perform differently due to the variation in cue ball weights. If there's any physics professors out there, they can more succinctly explain the significance of different mass weight objects striking each other, the transfer of energy process and resultant influence on what the cue ball does when it's heavier or lighter than the object ball it struck.
Now think about all the times you played a match and the cue ball just didn't go where you wanted it to or the cue ball seemed to come up short or long on position.........could it be the weight of the cue ball or object balls???????????
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To be clear, these are the weights of the individual balls that you weighed, not all Measles balls, all Blue Dot balls, etc. It would be interesting to see the weights of one set of, say, 10 new Measles balls, 10 new Blue Dot balls, etc.
I weighed five (5 )Measles Cue Balls..........2 were from The Break Room in Fresno, CA and 3 are mine....yup, I own 3 Measles cue balls......as well as 1 Jim Rempe Training Ball, 2 Centennial Blue Dot cue balls, 1 Aramith red circle cue ball and even two (2) sets of Aramith carom balls, plus the 2 sets of Centennial pool balls.
All 30 object balls and both blue dot centennial cue balls have been carefully weighed. Obviously, I've weighed every cue ball I own. When we did the test, we made sure to sample at least 3 cue balls of each version which is why it made sense to do this at the pool hall. There was never an instance where at least 3 of the identical type cue balls were weighed and there were actually 6 red dot circle cue balls weighed from The Break Room's sets of pool balls, and I used 2 of their measles balls plus I weighed again in front of everyone that was watching us my 3 Measles balls again.
Obviously it was a small sample but the point is the difference is significant, especially if you did not already realize that there was a real weight difference or maybe even played with a cue ball that wasn't legal, i.e., too light ot too heavy. I trust the results I got and that's why I posted this information so anyone else owning one of these cue balls, or any others, could weigh them and post the results. Are all the object balls in the set you get at the pool hall the same weight........probably not if there are any mismatched balls in the set. And what about the cue balls?
Anyway, I do not purport in any way to be the expert on this topic but I know what I now. It's entirely based upon empirical data assembled from careful weighing of randomly sampled cue balls of the same type. Now I look forward to seeing what new information can come forth because I already knew about this weight difference in cue balls.
I betcha most didn't know what the specifications were for pool balls or that there was a difference in cue ball weights........already did that.....done that.......now I want to see whether any new data will come forth or new opinions........but pool balls that do not meet the specs I quoted are not legal.
Did you know there was a minimum length for a pool cue but there was no maximum........minimum is 40".
Did you know the shaft can be as thin as you want but it cannot be wider than 14mm......or that the ferrule of a cue stick, if made of a metal material, may not be more than 1 inch (2,54cm) in length (Rule 17)............some might think this isn't interesting or important but it really does help to know the rules.......just like in golf, one never knows when it might come in handy. i.e., illegal jump cue in a tournament and you call it when it matters the most.
All 30 object balls and both blue dot centennial cue balls have been carefully weighed. Obviously, I've weighed every cue ball I own. When we did the test, we made sure to sample at least 3 cue balls of each version which is why it made sense to do this at the pool hall. There was never an instance where at least 3 of the identical type cue balls were weighed and there were actually 6 red dot circle cue balls weighed from The Break Room's sets of pool balls, and I used 2 of their measles balls plus I weighed again in front of everyone that was watching us my 3 Measles balls again.
Obviously it was a small sample but the point is the difference is significant, especially if you did not already realize that there was a real weight difference or maybe even played with a cue ball that wasn't legal, i.e., too light ot too heavy. I trust the results I got and that's why I posted this information so anyone else owning one of these cue balls, or any others, could weigh them and post the results. Are all the object balls in the set you get at the pool hall the same weight........probably not if there are any mismatched balls in the set. And what about the cue balls?
Anyway, I do not purport in any way to be the expert on this topic but I know what I now. It's entirely based upon empirical data assembled from careful weighing of randomly sampled cue balls of the same type. Now I look forward to seeing what new information can come forth because I already knew about this weight difference in cue balls.
I betcha most didn't know what the specifications were for pool balls or that there was a difference in cue ball weights........already did that.....done that.......now I want to see whether any new data will come forth or new opinions........but pool balls that do not meet the specs I quoted are not legal.
Did you know there was a minimum length for a pool cue but there was no maximum........minimum is 40".
Did you know the shaft can be as thin as you want but it cannot be wider than 14mm......or that the ferrule of a cue stick, if made of a metal material, may not be more than 1 inch (2,54cm) in length (Rule 17)............some might think this isn't interesting or important but it really does help to know the rules.......just like in golf, one never knows when it might come in handy. i.e., illegal jump cue in a tournament and you call it when it matters the most.
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Balls
Were all the balls new , They do wear quickly .
Were all the balls new , They do wear quickly .
One set of Centennials I own is brand new. The other set was brand new and has been used/played with for about 18 months.
My Measles cue balls.....2 are used & 1 is brand new. All my other cue balls that I mentioned are brand new and obviously, the pool balls at the Break Room are used pool balls.
I know that pool balls can change size, & therefore I'd imagine weight as well, from play over the years but I've always thought that it takes a very long time. I realize the test I did was affected by the age of the pool balls. Since all pool balls will incur wear & tear so to speak, and I haven't any way of estimating the hours of play for the pool balls tested at the Break Room, I think a better question is whether the pool balls are originally made with these varying weight differences? I'm sure that will be some people that disagree with me but I believe any reduction is size or weight of the pool balls will take a very long time. However, below is a excerpt from an article you might find interesting........I disagree with Bob's time frame but he knows more than me about pool.
This article is from the Pool & Billiards FAQ, by Bob Jewett with numerous contributions by others.
28. Do billiard balls wear down?
Yes, and not slowly. Within a year of daily play, all the balls in a set will be smaller than the allowed minimum in the equipment specs. The cue ball wears fastest, as it is struck by the tip and skids on the cloth on every shot. It is sent off thetable more often, as well. Object ball wear comes from friction on the cloth, and is worse if the cloth is allowed to become dirty. Since billiard chalk is made of ground up sand, dirty cloth works like fine sand paper. As the cue ball becomes smaller than the object balls, it will be much easier to draw, but harder to follow. Parts of the object ball design will likely wear faster, so on some balls you can tell the numbers by feel as the numbers wear faster or slower than the rest of the ball. Often the "eyes" of old balls will be found to bulge out.
I also located this excerpt form Cue Sport Group.............
"Have you ever wondered if billiard balls wear down? Well within just a year of play, it would surprise you that it could wear down. It actually just wear down to a size that would come to a point of not meeting anymore the requirement of most billiard sets in terms of equipment. The cue ball is what mostly wears down easily since it is struck with a cue tip and it comes in contact with the billiard table cloth each and every single shot. It is also expected that it could be launched off from the billiard table at times.
Due to so much friction, the billiard balls wear down more quickly especially with the cloth becoming dirtier due to all the chalk dust that settles in it. Remember that billiard chalk is made of very fine sand and hence the billiard table cloth acts like a rough sandpaper.
Anyway, I'm not an expert on the subject of pool ball reduction from wear & tear but it certainly appears to be a variable.
My Measles cue balls.....2 are used & 1 is brand new. All my other cue balls that I mentioned are brand new and obviously, the pool balls at the Break Room are used pool balls.
I know that pool balls can change size, & therefore I'd imagine weight as well, from play over the years but I've always thought that it takes a very long time. I realize the test I did was affected by the age of the pool balls. Since all pool balls will incur wear & tear so to speak, and I haven't any way of estimating the hours of play for the pool balls tested at the Break Room, I think a better question is whether the pool balls are originally made with these varying weight differences? I'm sure that will be some people that disagree with me but I believe any reduction is size or weight of the pool balls will take a very long time. However, below is a excerpt from an article you might find interesting........I disagree with Bob's time frame but he knows more than me about pool.
This article is from the Pool & Billiards FAQ, by Bob Jewett with numerous contributions by others.
28. Do billiard balls wear down?
Yes, and not slowly. Within a year of daily play, all the balls in a set will be smaller than the allowed minimum in the equipment specs. The cue ball wears fastest, as it is struck by the tip and skids on the cloth on every shot. It is sent off thetable more often, as well. Object ball wear comes from friction on the cloth, and is worse if the cloth is allowed to become dirty. Since billiard chalk is made of ground up sand, dirty cloth works like fine sand paper. As the cue ball becomes smaller than the object balls, it will be much easier to draw, but harder to follow. Parts of the object ball design will likely wear faster, so on some balls you can tell the numbers by feel as the numbers wear faster or slower than the rest of the ball. Often the "eyes" of old balls will be found to bulge out.
I also located this excerpt form Cue Sport Group.............
"Have you ever wondered if billiard balls wear down? Well within just a year of play, it would surprise you that it could wear down. It actually just wear down to a size that would come to a point of not meeting anymore the requirement of most billiard sets in terms of equipment. The cue ball is what mostly wears down easily since it is struck with a cue tip and it comes in contact with the billiard table cloth each and every single shot. It is also expected that it could be launched off from the billiard table at times.
Due to so much friction, the billiard balls wear down more quickly especially with the cloth becoming dirtier due to all the chalk dust that settles in it. Remember that billiard chalk is made of very fine sand and hence the billiard table cloth acts like a rough sandpaper.
Anyway, I'm not an expert on the subject of pool ball reduction from wear & tear but it certainly appears to be a variable.
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At my pool hall they use red logo cue balls. They're heavey! A CB-OB distance of 5ft hitting the CB with maximum draw results in a stop shot. If I use 2 OBs I can draw it about 9ft. The cloth is old though so it would be interesting to see how they did on my table.
I always take a set of Pro Cup balls with me and if not the whole set, just the CB. Makes playing on a beaten up table quite enjoyable.
I always take a set of Pro Cup balls with me and if not the whole set, just the CB. Makes playing on a beaten up table quite enjoyable.
In terms of liveliness (how they rebound off other balls), I find the Aramith standard, or maybe it's the Pro (the wavy one as you said) and the measels balls to be pretty lively. They draw/follow pretty easy. The Centenial one is next, the two toughest ones are the Aramith Tournament and the Blue Circle ball, both of those are a lot harder to apply spin to, especially draw. As someone else said, playing a draw shot on those often ends up in a stop shot unless you give it more force. A longer shot with a 1-2-3 inch draw is a stop shot with those cue calls when hit at the same speed as the others.
This is not based on weight or size, rather on how they actually rebound, I think the material and how they are made makes as much a difference as anything else.
This is not based on weight or size, rather on how they actually rebound, I think the material and how they are made makes as much a difference as anything else.
Centennial QB is a blue circle not dot.
Typo..........Thank You..........Hookmehorns was my source for both Centennial sets........he's a great Azer.
I appreciate someone going to the trouble of providing data. My experience with Aramith Red Circle CBs is quite a bit better that posted here or in the other thread about cue ball differences.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4349966&postcount=19
From the WPA and BCA rules: "The ferrule of the cue stick, if of a metal material, may not be more than 1 inch [2.54 cm] in length."
I play with shafts from 2 HoF cuemakers whose ferrules are longer than 1". But they are not made of metal. :thumbup:
Thank you for correcting him.
When I read his post the other day I immediately said to my self "that's not correct," but I couldn't remember the specific rule offhand. I probably got caught up reading other threads and forgot to go look it up and post the correction.
Unlike some people, I like to make sure my facts are actually... you know, facts before I post them. Particularly important if you like to go off quoting rules.
Yup...I forgot to type the metal ferrule reference and I also had a typo referring to the blue circle as a blue dot on my Centennial set ....and....and.....everything else cited was dead on target. Anyway, the original topic was the difference in cue balls.....but thanks for correcting my misquote on WPA Rule 17. Cue Sticks.
Here's the real deal, and this comes straight from Aramith:
The Pro Cup (measle) and red logo (wavy) ball are both made with the Super Aramith Pro resin. This is their top of the line resin except perhaps for the new Tournaments that are made with the Super Aramith Pro resin with Duramith technology, whatever that is.
The blue circle (not blue dot) is also made with the Super Aramith Pro resin, just like the above two.
The red dot (not red circle) and blue dot (not blue circle) are both made with the lower end Aramith Premier resin.
The red circle ball is kind of Aramith's generic cue ball and is made with the Super Aramith resin (not the Super Aramith Pro resin).
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The Pro Cup (measle) ball, the red logo ball, and the blue circle ball are all the same composition cue ball with different insignias. The Pro Cup comes with the Super Aramith Pro Cup TV set, the red logo ball comes with the regular Super Aramith Pro set, and the blue circle comes with the Brunswick Centennials, which is the Brunswick branded version of the same set. Since all three sets are the same (except colors/graphics) and the sets are said to be matched, it makes sense that they are all the same cue ball.
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As far as individual CB weights go, they mean nothing in terms of making a general statement of what that model ball weighs . All Aramith balls are "regulation" which means they are within specs. But because the weight spec is 5.5oz. to 6.0 oz. variances can and do occur all the time. Because the Centennial and Super Pro sets are said to be matched (for weight, size, and color) then all the balls in a new original set should be close in weight, cue ball included. What this means is the balls in one set may weigh closer to 5.5 oz. while in another weigh closer to 6.0 oz. But the balls in any given matched set should be close in weight.
But when introducing a replacement or aftermarket cue ball to a set, it can obviously have a different weight. This is the problem with buying a measle ball, for example, to go with a set of Super Pros or Centennials. Even though it's the same composition cue ball as came with the set, it may not weigh the same as the original CB. That's why posting the weights of individual cue balls means nothing. Same thing with weighing an original cue ball to the rest of a used set because wear no comes into play.
Here is a good source of information on Dr. Dave's website. Some of the contributions in this section come from AZ members, myself included. He also has a link to the original word document that I received from Saluc and gave to him that was the source for the above info on their balls.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/balls.html#cue_ball_types
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