shot maker vs position player

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
you can improve and develop as a position player

If a player somehow becomes a great position player first they will not develop as a pure shot-maker. However, you can improve and develop as a position player after becoming an accurate shot-maker.

As far as competition is concerned, it can be intimidating to face a pure shot-maker.....against a position specialist you usually just have to cut down on mistakes.

The true challenge is maintaining both skills at a high level, this requires some 14.1 (straight pool) practice. imho
 

CSykes24

www.coreysykes.com
Silver Member
That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.

Debatable. Sometimes making the shot to leave yourself a tough next shot is fine, especially if the next shot has easier options for a safe than the current.
 

MapleMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is a spin on the question.

If you could start out being very strong with one and leave the other to practice and grow, would you rather start out a strong shotmaker or position player ?

It is still taking me forever to get that cue ball on a string

I can make long thin cut shots but it is not helpful when I leave myself a shot that is hopeless.

To answer the question I would value position. As long as you can make elementary shots cue ball control is key. Then you don't leave yourself difficult shots

Good control probably means good safes so tough shots left by opponents can turn into safeties.
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
It sounds like you need an Aiming System!

That way you will make EVERY shot. You'll never have any doubt about pocketing a ball. It will happen automatically.

Send me $80 (cash only) and you could win the US Open and maybe get paid.

:grin:

Seriously, it sounds like you're on the right track. I'm just a C player who gets darn near perfect shape on every shot...except I rattle the OB in the jaws for my opponent to tap in.
 

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
The true challenge is maintaining both skills at a high level, this requires some 14.1 (straight pool) practice. imho

Thank you, great statement. You're officially off the hook for plagiarizing my TOI. :thumbup: ( I never figured I'd get that 4 bucks anyhow.)
 

ronscuba

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is still taking me forever to get that cue ball on a string

I can make long thin cut shots but it is not helpful when I leave myself a shot that is hopeless.

To answer the question I would value position. As long as you can make elementary shots cue ball control is key. Then you don't leave yourself difficult shots

Good control probably means good safes so tough shots left by opponents can turn into safeties.

Shot making is my strength.

CB directional control is getting better, but controlling the CB direction and speed together is currently my biggest flaw.

I think I need to work on recognizing how to come into the position zone parallel instead of crossing it. This way speed has more room for error.
 

ronscuba

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is still taking me forever to get that cue ball on a string

I can make long thin cut shots but it is not helpful when I leave myself a shot that is hopeless.

To answer the question I would value position. As long as you can make elementary shots cue ball control is key. Then you don't leave yourself difficult shots

Good control probably means good safes so tough shots left by opponents can turn into safeties.

Shot making is my strength.

CB directional control is getting better, but controlling the CB direction and speed together is currently my biggest flaw.

I think I need to work on recognizing how to come into the position zone parallel instead of crossing it or enter through the wide end of the position zone. This way speed has more room for error.
 

MapleMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BB has it right by calling running out "drunk driving"

I haven't been making it home from the bar lately
 

NitPicker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hope all is well with everyone:)

So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!

So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?

Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control:)


The answer is simple: Good players make great shots. Great players don't.
 

Dunnn51

Clear the table!
Silver Member
Not either or,... but which ?

I will say they are BOTH important.
What I think matters is whoever is the best at what they do will likely be the winner be it the shot-maker ,or the position player.

I seen position players fold like a bad poker hand when they don't get shape.

I also think that when you get to the table, you will be jammed, shooting off the rail , or out of a pocket so you need some level of shot-making to stay on the table.

I'll give shot-making a slight edge.
 

RFranklin

Ready, fire...aim
Silver Member
Shot making/postion

For me I think that my shot making taught me how to control the cue ball better and made me a better position player. I was that drunk kid running tables in my 20's but boy it was impressive with all those ESPN moments. Obviously position is 50% of every shot. It makes me laugh when less skilled players dont realize that the harder part of somthing I shot was setting position for the position on the next ball. In my 40's i finally realized that sometimes you just have to take what the table gives you and shoot at a 60/40 versus forcing the issue for perfect position. I liken it Jack Nicklaus quote about the guy who wins usually has the most "livable misses" not the most amazing shots. It would be nice to run tables like Shane or Alex but most of us cant keep that going for more than 2 or 3 tables at a time. Just like golf, that is what keeps me coming back.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For me I think that my shot making taught me how to control the cue ball better and made me a better position player. I was that drunk kid running tables in my 20's but boy it was impressive with all those ESPN moments.

It would be nice to run tables like Shane or Alex but most of us cant keep that going for more than 2 or 3 tables at a time. Just like golf, that is what keeps me coming back.

That's why I always tell people I play way better than the pros!

When I get out, it looks tough...coz it is:eek:.
 

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
Here is a spin on the question.

If you could start out being very strong with one and leave the other to practice and grow, would you rather start out a strong shotmaker or position player ?

That largely depends on the game you're playing. While it wasn't mentioned, I'm pretty sure its 9 ball or 10 ball, so in that case, shot making. 1pkt .... not so much. :smile:
 

liakos

Banned
If a player somehow becomes a great position player first they will not develop as a pure shot-maker. However, you can improve and develop as a position player after becoming an accurate shot-maker.

As far as competition is concerned, it can be intimidating to face a pure shot-maker.....against a position specialist you usually just have to cut down on mistakes.

The true challenge is maintaining both skills at a high level, this requires some 14.1 (straight pool) practice. imho

I always look forward to your comments CJ, but as much as I want to disagree with you, I can't! I've always wanted to reach open status! I've been playing for almost 9 YRS now and although I started late in life at 28, I can't get any good at this great sport working as much as I do! It makes me feel bad sometimes, but I have some nice accomplishments in the game that I sometimes look back to for drive! The first being 11 break and runs in a row in 9-ball and beating the ghost 15-7 with no ball in hands;) they were done on my gc3 with 4&3/8 pockets using the magic rack and pattern racking;)

I know in the end it really doesn't matter, but the truth will set you free! In order to play well in this sport, you need a touch of talent! To which I have very little for this sport! But the love I have for this sport is far too great for me to ever give up my persuit for reaching a lofty goal! I'm not giving up, and I never will! Like some matches I've been down hill to 0,,,, I never gave up, I've come back to win a few from there! I guess what I'm trying to say is what some of my friends say about my game,,,, I've got a lot of heart:) I always tell them that you can never give up:)

Thanks again CJ, I always look forward to your posts:)

P.S. that one pocket drill you have where you pocket all the balls in one pocket,,,,, I LOVE THAT! I've got 3 run outs in 50-60 tries:):):). Again, thank you:)
 

Zippy371

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I my opinion this argument really depends on the overall level you are talking about. If you are playing well you don't need to make any "hard" shots, therefore the position play is key. Really more of being on the right side of the ball more than precise position. From the right side of the ball you can usually get right back in line. The drawback to being a position player in my opinion is that you only really beat people that you are better than. Where as a "shot-maker" many times has a higher gear that lets them beat players that are at a higher level than themselves because they get loose. (free-stroking) Now I agree that the position player will win more matches and maybe cash more than the shot-maker in the long run. But the shot-maker will have more tournament wins because they have a higher gear, but more 2 and outs also.
Just the way I look at it anyway.
 

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
Maybe I am screwed up, probably so.
I am wondering where these players are that can do everything there is with a cue ball, but are not shot makers. :scratchhead:

I think you start out banging balls around (no clue where to hit the cue ball)
You start making a few shots (no clue where to hit the cue ball)
You start making more shots because you are doing it more often (still no clue)

Bingo...you are a shot maker. All of a sudden you find out there is this thing called position (After 10 years you may learn how to use the cue ball) 5 if you learn 3 cushion.

All players are shot makers, some a little better than others, but all are shot makers.

He who controls the cue ball the best usually wins, unless he is the unluckiest bastid on earth. Players want to play a shot maker who does not know the cue ball, all day, everyday, for the rest of their life.
Guaranteed they will not be intimidated.
Guaranteed he will be frustrated shooting low percentage shots until he crumbles. Kicking at balls with no clue, wrong speeds, safe him out and watch the frustration set in.
 

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?
Silver Member
When I see a guy firing in tough shot after tough shot, it can be intimidating, but I know he's gonna miss sooner or later and I'll get my chance.
But when my opponent is getting perfect shape with perfect angles on every shot, I just sit, watch and hope for another chance, which is usually a kick shot of some kind.
 

Celtic

AZB's own 8-ball jihadist
Silver Member
I consider shot making a given when it comes to B players and up.

There is always different scales for different levels.

At the fairly high levels a "shotmaker" is still going to play shape, they are not shooting wild and hoping to get a shot on the next ball. They might not have the cueball on a string and might not get the perfect angle every time, but they are getting shots.

At the fairly high level the position player is still going to make most of his shots. They will make all of the easy ones, virtually all of the normal ones, and only miss a few more of the real tester shots.

At the high level as mentioned above, the shotmaker starts to become the more dominant player. That is because at the highest of levels missing one or two shots in a match is all it takes to lose. The shotmaker might get a few more tough shots because of blown shape, but at the top levels players are generally not taking on the toughest of shots and instead duck when things get "too" tough.

It is not the crazy tough pots that tend to win and lose a match, it is that one or two shots that were fairly makeable that get bobbled. The shotmaker by definition is not going to miss the makeable shots as often trying to go for that perfect shape, they focus more on potting the ball and shape is secondary and as such they don't have those shocking misses on makeable balls as often as the position player, who might be focusing on getting that spin perfect so they can land perfect on the next ball.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
Great minds......

Definitely shot-making first. Ray Martin taught me that when he was my coach. I can still hear him preaching to me how the great players were all great shot-makers before they became great position players.
I have been a fan of Ray Martin since reading his 99 critical shots a long time ago. I remember watching him play in the 1980's Reno Sands tournaments. The way he moved whitey around the table said "straight pool".

I was taught the same thing by my first coach. I still thank him for it.
 

ronscuba

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe I am screwed up, probably so.
I am wondering where these players are that can do everything there is with a cue ball, but are not shot makers. :scratchhead:

I think you start out banging balls around (no clue where to hit the cue ball)
You start making a few shots (no clue where to hit the cue ball)
You start making more shots because you are doing it more often (still no clue)

Bingo...you are a shot maker. All of a sudden you find out there is this thing called position (After 10 years you may learn how to use the cue ball) 5 if you learn 3 cushion.

All players are shot makers, some a little better than others, but all are shot makers.

He who controls the cue ball the best usually wins, unless he is the unluckiest bastid on earth. Players want to play a shot maker who does not know the cue ball, all day, everyday, for the rest of their life.
Guaranteed they will not be intimidated.
Guaranteed he will be frustrated shooting low percentage shots until he crumbles. Kicking at balls with no clue, wrong speeds, safe him out and watch the frustration set in.

Very true. But I see many players in my league with different strengths and weaknesses. Some lower rated players are better shot makers than some B's. Others are very strong with defense and strategy.
 
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