Big action, Kevin Cheng vs DD

Tin Man

Tin Man

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what's more...

PoolBum said:
I agree with what you say here, including the fact that Aranas' rating is well-earned.

My point is about ratings, not these two players. If you have a ratings system that only goes by game count, something may be missing.

Suppose I tell you that player A and player B have played 181 games against each other. The game count is 91-90 in favor of player B. Who's the better player?

Now suppose I tell you that they have played ten races to 10, with player A winning 9 of the 10 sets, and player B winning one of them. Who's the better player?
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I love these types of questions.

What would be even more interesting is if player A and player B also both competed in many of the same tournaments. Player B consistently finished higher, had a higher performance average against the field, had more prize money won, and had even won the event a few times (which player A had not). But every time he played player A heads up he came up short.

Now who's the better player? The winner of the two in a heads up match? Or the one with the better overall performance and resume?

But, while these questions are interesting, they just don't come up often in practice. Maybe one player has a good track record with another player and 'has his number', in that case there might be a pre-match favorite not reflected in the ratings. But I haven't really seen an example where a player that falls short under pressure again and again against all opponents is overrated. Generally speaking this will be baked into their ratings. It's theoretically possible, just seems a bit far fetched. Ratings aren't definitive.

Reminds me of a quote I enjoy: In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
 
highkarate

highkarate

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one stroke said:
Well I told Dima I didn't really like the game . he has won a US OPEN , and he robbed Archer on his set up home table ,
JA posted a review on how good this kid can play , that coming from a legend something iv never forgot ,

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Earlier in this thread, when James was up 1 set and winning in the 2nd set, you said this was all a formality because there is too big a difference in the class of these 2 players. Which is like the complete opposite of what you're saying here.
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
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highkarate said:
Earlier in this thread, when James was up 1 set and winning in the 2nd set, you said this was all a formality because there is too big a difference in the class of these 2 players. Which is like the complete opposite of what you're saying here.
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I admit it...I felt Kev was getting robbed also...DD is action tough, I was thinking,
...I am so impressed by the heart Cheng showed.


I SEEM TO HAVE SOMETHING ON MY FACE...:eek::eek::eek::eek:

0DE80D27-5FEB-41F7-A419-CB07CCCC1962.jpeg
 
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one stroke

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highkarate said:
Earlier in this thread, when James was up 1 set and winning in the 2nd set, you said this was all a formality because there is too big a difference in the class of these 2 players. Which is like the complete opposite of what you're saying here.
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Ya Kevin just looked like he was on another planet I couldn't believe what I was seeing
I got to hand it to him he surprised me coming back like he did ,



1
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

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Let's throw some "conspiracy theories" into the threads, since everyone seems to think Kevin was the "underdog".

How about, "maybe Kevin was laying down" in the beginning in order to make it interesting.

You can't count out any of the top Taiwan players when it comes to money matches.
 
G

gxman

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Maybe KC always slow coming out the gate. He lost his recent match to Bergman if I remember right.

If he rematches with Bergman with the same format as this, I would have to like KC.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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What most of you guys don't get is there is a big difference in being a good money player and being a good tournament player. You can argue about Fargo ratings all day long and what they don't take into account is how a player handles gambling for big money. Some can do it and some get a little weak in the knees. Remember Fargo ratings are based solely on tournament matches.

I spoke with Dennis about this very match last night and he wasn't at all surprised. Dudong has never been one of the top money players in the PI. Chua on the other hand is stronger in this respect. I will only add this. Most of those guys ahead of Dennis in the Fargo ratings would not dare to gamble with him.

Another example might be Bergman's upcoming match with Shane. On paper (and Fargo) Shane is rated much higher, as was Shaw, who first lost to Bergman and then ducked him the second time around. If they did a separate Fargo rating based on money matches, it would look a whole lot different than the current one based on tournament matches alone.

Chohan hasn't done that well in One Pocket tournaments, but you won't find many (or any for that matter) of the One Pocket champs that want to tangle with him for big bucks.

I hope I've made my case here.
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

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Mike has said he actually does put in exhibition/streamed/gambling matches as long as they are pre-announced. Maybe being streamed was another qualifier, I forget.
 
BeiberLvr

BeiberLvr

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jay helfert said:
What most of you guys don't get is there is a big difference in being a good money player and being a good tournament player. You can argue about Fargo ratings all day long and what they don't take into account is how a player handles gambling for big money. Some can do it and some get a little weak in the knees. Remember Fargo ratings are based solely on tournament matches.

I spoke with Dennis about this very match last night and he wasn't at all surprised. Dudong has never been one of the top money players in the PI. Chua on the other hand is stronger in this respect. I will only add this. Most of those guys ahead of Dennis in the Fargo ratings would not dare to gamble with him.

Another example might be Bergman's upcoming match with Shane. On paper (and Fargo) Shane is rated much higher, as was Shaw, who first lost to Bergman and then ducked him the second time around. If they did a separate Fargo rating based on money matches, it would look a whole lot different than the current one based on tournament matches alone.

Chohan hasn't done that well in One Pocket tournaments, but you won't find many (or any for that matter) of the One Pocket champs that want to tangle with him for big bucks.

I hope I've made my case here.
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The best players are the ones that can do both at a high level, but at the end of the day, I'd still rate being a great tournament player as a better level of success.

Any pool player that says they'd take being known as a great money player over a world champion is lying.
 
S

skogstokig

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jay helfert said:
What most of you guys don't get is there is a big difference in being a good money player and being a good tournament player. You can argue about Fargo ratings all day long and what they don't take into account is how a player handles gambling for big money. Some can do it and some get a little weak in the knees. Remember Fargo ratings are based solely on tournament matches.

I spoke with Dennis about this very match last night and he wasn't at all surprised. Dudong has never been one of the top money players in the PI. Chua on the other hand is stronger in this respect. I will only add this. Most of those guys ahead of Dennis in the Fargo ratings would not dare to gamble with him.

Another example might be Bergman's upcoming match with Shane. On paper (and Fargo) Shane is rated much higher, as was Shaw, who first lost to Bergman and then ducked him the second time around. If they did a separate Fargo rating based on money matches, it would look a whole lot different than the current one based on tournament matches alone.

Chohan hasn't done that well in One Pocket tournaments, but you won't find many (or any for that matter) of the One Pocket champs that want to tangle with him for big bucks.

I hope I've made my case here.
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and some supposedly good match up players can't handle big tournaments. shot clock, restricted number of smoke breaks, drug testing, etc might play a role as well
 
G

gxman

AzB Silver Member
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Before I started following pool, but I think I've heard it mention that Parica was the top money match player, while Efren, Earl, etc were the best tournament player.
 
highkarate

highkarate

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Black-Balled said:
Do we think aranas plays as well as Chua? Kiamco? Gomez?

I don't.
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I would say he's not as good as Chua, but he's better than Kiamco, Gomez, handful of other guys. I remember seeing videos on youtube a few years ago of Ignacio giving him the 6-ball and beating him. Obviously he's magnitudes better now, but he only has a couple years experience competing at the top level. His tournament results are pretty good though.
 
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one stroke

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jay helfert said:
What most of you guys don't get is there is a big difference in being a good money player and being a good tournament player. You can argue about Fargo ratings all day long and what they don't take into account is how a player handles gambling for big money. Some can do it and some get a little weak in the knees. Remember Fargo ratings are based solely on tournament matches.

I spoke with Dennis about this very match last night and he wasn't at all surprised. Dudong has never been one of the top money players in the PI. Chua on the other hand is stronger in this respect. I will only add this. Most of those guys ahead of Dennis in the Fargo ratings would not dare to gamble with him.

Another example might be Bergman's upcoming match with Shane. On paper (and Fargo) Shane is rated much higher, as was Shaw, who first lost to Bergman and then ducked him the second time around. If they did a separate Fargo rating based on money matches, it would look a whole lot different than the current one based on tournament matches alone.

Chohan hasn't done that well in One Pocket tournaments, but you won't find many (or any for that matter) of the One Pocket champs that want to tangle with him for big bucks.

I hope I've made my case here.
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There are 5 ahead of DO , Wu , Shane ,Filler ,Shaw .and Chang, I see 2 that he's the favorite against , Wu and Shaw ,,

1
 
gypsy_soul

gypsy_soul

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jay helfert said:
What most of you guys don't get is there is a big difference in being a good money player and being a good tournament player. You can argue about Fargo ratings all day long and what they don't take into account is how a player handles gambling for big money. Some can do it and some get a little weak in the knees. Remember Fargo ratings are based solely on tournament matches.

I spoke with Dennis about this very match last night and he wasn't at all surprised. Dudong has never been one of the top money players in the PI. Chua on the other hand is stronger in this respect. I will only add this. Most of those guys ahead of Dennis in the Fargo ratings would not dare to gamble with him.

Another example might be Bergman's upcoming match with Shane. On paper (and Fargo) Shane is rated much higher, as was Shaw, who first lost to Bergman and then ducked him the second time around. If they did a separate Fargo rating based on money matches, it would look a whole lot different than the current one based on tournament matches alone.

Chohan hasn't done that well in One Pocket tournaments, but you won't find many (or any for that matter) of the One Pocket champs that want to tangle with him for big bucks.

I hope I've made my case here.
Click to expand...






Oh I totally understand but let them figure it out on their own lol .... Nobody held our hand through the learning process. I have a buddy that plays tournaments everyday but boy if you put that heat on him for the cash he will fold like a paper bag !
 
CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I dunno, I don't think this proves Dodong's not a top money player,
or is a good example of how Fargo can get it wrong.

The final score in games was 65-67.
Dodong ran a 7 pack, it's not like he was shaking.
And it's not like he's rarely in action, or rarely wins.

Fargo has them within 2 points of each other, and after 132 racks there's only a 2 game difference.
So I'd say Fargo nailed it.

Sure, Dodong's lost some high profile money matches, but those are to very strong players like Biado,
and he doesn't lose by much. Fargo was pretty close on that one too.

I think if they played many sets, we'd see Dodong win about half of them.
 
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