Controlling The Mass

Low500 · Aug 10, 2018

LAMas said:
Follow hit:
The cue tip impacts the ball and the ball accelerates away from the tip and then the ball ceases to accelerate with a small separation between the tip and ball.
Does the cue and tip slow down at impact creating the separation instead?
Thereafter, the cue tip and ball travel at the same speed.
Draw hit:
The separation is greater than with the draw/low hit than the follow/high hit - less friction on the cloth or slippage?
The acceleration from rest or zero continues after separation if still accelerating for an instant.
The "instant" is of little consequence so I yield to Randy - the ball slows down after separation.
http://dbkcues.ru/2011/05/28/new-portion-of-the-hs-video-follow-and-draw-shot/?lang=en

Please don't jump on me as being a smart ass or troublemaker.....I just have to say something here. It's only my opinion, of course.
Is all this stuff really necessary to become a better player or is it just for esoteric discussion? All for fun, if you will.
If it's just for fun, then have at it and enjoy.
If for improving at the game, I can't buy into it.
Here's where I have to agree with those who preach "just hit a million balls". (although I do think that hitting that million balls in the correct spot is a lot better than just hitting them). Just stay at the table popping those balls....after all, pool is an outcome based game. The ball either goes into the pocket or it doesn't. I personally could care less about the why or what happens during the collision.
Again, not looking for trouble. I admit to being way too practical at times, just my cross to bear I guess.
:thumbup:

LAMas · Aug 10, 2018

Just "Controlling the Mass.".

One Pocket John · Aug 11, 2018

I'm going to be talking about a couple of terms here that some may not be familiar with.
If your not familiar with them just remember "Google is your friend"

1. Ape Index
2. Gait

I'm 6'-2" tall and have an ape index of 6'-2". My gait is a normal and comfortable step froward.

I think that historically cue builders have built their cues to have an overall length of 58" with a balance point at about 18" measured from the butt end cap.

My cue as purchased was 58" long and had a balance point at about 18".
Since my ape index is so large most of my grip hand was never on the wrap. Which left very little mass behind my grip, maybe a couple of inches.

A few years ago I was watching some pro's play on YouTube and they were using a mid cue extension called "Balance Rite". (3.75" long and weighs 2 oz)

I thought okay I'll give it a shot, ordered one and put it on my cue. This increased the length of the cue from 58" to 62" and added 2 oz of weight to the total cue weight. I had to experiment with the weight screw in the butt. Finally got that right, the total weight of the cue now is 20 oz with a 22" balance point and the cue feels very comfortable to play with.

Adding 3.75" to the length of the cue now allowed me to move my grip hand onto the wrap, with 1" of wrap showing behind my grip hand. Now I had 5" of mass behind my grip hand. My normal bridge distance is 8" to 10" where I can use it.

I really like the Balance Rite, now I can have my hand on the wrap I paid for.

The old saying goes, hold the cue lightly and let the cue do all the work. That's all fine and dandy if you have sufficient mass behind your grip hand to allow for that to happen.

If you don't have enough mass behind your grip hand to allow for the cue to do all the work, then what happens is you compensate for this by trying to push the cue forward in a straight line. This introduces a lot of unwanted tension in the grip hand, lower bicep and possibly the shoulder.

I have been around pool since 1963 and will try anything to make this game more enjoyable for me.

Adding this weighted butt extension to my cue has opened up a whole new opportunity for me to really begin playing well. By the way, the length of the mass behind my grip hand has went from 5" to 17" and feels great. The cue is now doing all the work and I'm just guiding (pulling) the mass behind my grip forward and down a straight line.
I feel absolutely no tension anywhere in my grip hand, arm or upper arm/shoulder. If fact the upper arm/shoulder are not even in the equation any more. If the upper arm drops it's only because the mass of the cue is pulling it down.

I want to say that if your one of these players that gets to hold there grip hand in the middle of the wrap I'm real happy for you.

So, if your one of these players that has very little mass behind your grip hand give it a shot, build the extension and try it out. For $5.00 you cant go wrong. All of the materials are at Lowes.

Have a nice weekend.

John

Mkbtank · Aug 11, 2018

I have a very short backswing. People have commented for years how ugly my stroke is (including me lol). But.... my ugly stroke keeps me in action because even after I beat someone they can’t believe it

. True story.

Low500 · Aug 11, 2018

One Pocket John said:
The old saying goes, hold the cue lightly and let the cue do all the work. That's all fine and dandy if you have sufficient mass behind your grip hand to allow for that to happen.
If you don't have enough mass behind your grip hand to allow for the cue to do all the work, then what happens is you compensate for this by trying to push the cue forward in a straight line. This introduces a lot of unwanted tension in the grip hand, lower bicep and possibly the shoulder.
I have been around pool since 1963 and will try anything to make this game more enjoyable for me.
Adding this weighted butt extension to my cue has opened up a whole new opportunity for me to really begin playing well. By the way, the length of the mass behind my grip hand has went from 5" to 17" and feels great. The cue is now doing all the work and I'm just guiding (pulling) the mass behind my grip forward and down a straight line.
I feel absolutely no tension anywhere in my grip hand, arm or upper arm/shoulder. If fact the upper arm/shoulder are not even in the equation any more. If the upper arm drops it's only because the mass of the cue is pulling it down.
I want to say that if your one of these players that gets to hold there grip hand in the middle of the wrap I'm real happy for you.
So, if your one of these players that has very little mass behind your grip hand give it a shot, build the extension and try it out. For $5.00 you cant go wrong. All of the materials are at Lowes.
John

As far as I'm concerned, all of what I've edited from your post as it relates to me is the absolute gospel truth. And I started going into pool rooms in 1953. Yep not '63 like you, but '53.

I also used the balance rite middle extension for a while. Didn't help much...now it is in the junk box.
This homemade "tail end" extension idea of yours is the stone cold nuts!
No longer do I start getting that sneaky feeling of 'scare' rising up in the gut when I'm faced with that full length table shot with CB frozen on the rail. And believe me, I've spent the hours trying to be comfortable and proficient on those shots....hours and hours for years. Had some very good coaching on it too, along the way. (not from fat belly big shots, but from real hitters who played for the cheese...Mizerak, Martin, Jones, Squirrel, Robin Bell, Jimmy Reid and more.) Stan Shuffett's "poke stroke" off the rail helped a lot, but not quite good enough for an old lock artist like me.
I still don't want to shoot them, they're tough, but that "mass behind the grip" makes it a whole lot better. And when the guy misses an easy shot, that is exactly where I always seem to get left....frozen on that rail a mile away from the hole.
For the few bucks invested, a person can't really go wrong in trying it out. He can always just throw the thing way if it doesn't work. Certainly not like spending 80-100 dollars for something and then being disappointed.
You're a pretty sharp old bird. Gotta' hand it to you. :thumbup:

One Pocket John · Aug 11, 2018

Low500 said:
As far as I'm concerned, all of what I've edited from your post as it relates to me is the absolute gospel truth. And I started going into pool rooms in 1953. Yep not '63 like you, but '53.
I also used the balance rite middle extension for a while. Didn't help much...now it is in the junk box.
This homemade "tail end" extension idea of yours is the stone cold nuts!
No longer do I start getting that sneaky feeling of 'scare' rising up in the gut when I'm faced with that full length table shot with CB frozen on the rail. And believe me, I've spent the hours trying to be comfortable and proficient on those shots....hours and hours for years. Had some very good coaching on it too, along the way. (not from fat belly big shots, but from real hitters who played for the cheese...Mizerak, Martin, Jones, Squirrel, Robin Bell, Jimmy Reid and more.) Stan Shuffett's "poke stroke" off the rail helped a lot, but not quite good enough for an old lock artist like me.
I still don't want to shoot them, they're tough, but that "mass behind the grip" makes it a whole lot better. And when the guy misses an easy shot, that is exactly where I always seem to get left....frozen on that rail a mile away from the hole.
For the few bucks invested, a person can't really go wrong in trying it out. He can always just throw the thing way if it doesn't work. Certainly not like spending 80-100 dollars for something and then being disappointed.
You're a pretty sharp old bird. Gotta' hand it to you. :thumbup:

Thanks for the kind words.

Just got back from Lowes with materials to build a new extension. It was important that the weight on the end of the extension be adjustable at all times.

I didn't put it all together yet because I wanted folks to see how simple it is to build one of these. Not even painted yet. I might go with flames or lightning bolt decals later.

The PVC end cap has a 3/8-16 x 2 hex bolt going thru it. The bolt is held in place by a 3/8" nut that is not removable. As needed to fit ones comfort (desired feel) additional 3/8" nuts can be added. The cap will be removable to either add more weight or to reduce the weight.

I forgot to mention that the overall length of the extension is 12"

Like I thought I spent $6.00

So, here is a picture before final assemble.

John

Low500 · Aug 11, 2018

One of the most informative posts ever made in this entire site, in my opinion.
Great work and great thinking.

Dan White · Aug 11, 2018

One Pocket John said:
Adding 3.75" to the length of the cue now allowed me to move my grip hand onto the wrap, with 1" of wrap showing behind my grip hand. Now I had 5" of mass behind my grip hand. My normal bridge distance is 8" to 10" where I can use it.

If fact the upper arm/shoulder are not even in the equation any more. If the upper arm drops it's only because the mass of the cue is pulling it down.

Question: I'm a little confused about something. You used to hold the cue farther back than you do now, but you say that the upper arm does not move during your stroke. That means you are using a pendulum stroke. Normally you want the lower arm to be perpendicular to the cue at contact. Adding mass to the back of the cue wouldn't change that. If you have changed the point where you hold the cue are you now perpendicular, and were not previously, or vice versa?

One Pocket John · Aug 11, 2018

Dan White said:
Question: I'm a little confused about something. You used to hold the cue farther back than you do now, but you say that the upper arm does not move during your stroke. That means you are using a pendulum stroke. Normally you want the lower arm to be perpendicular to the cue at contact. Adding mass to the back of the cue wouldn't change that. If you have changed the point where you hold the cue are you now perpendicular, and were not previously, or vice versa?

I still hold the cue with 1" of wrap showing which leaves 5" of mass behind my grip hand.
With the addition of the weighted extension and grip hand in the same position I now have 16" of weighted mass behind my grip hand.

The only way the upper arm will drop is if I allow the mass to continue forward. This of course depends on where I would like the cue ball to go.

With the addition of the weighted extension using the short stroking technique is working very well. My backstroke of the cue is about 4" or less.

Yes, I would have to say that the stroke is more of a pendulum type. Not the piston type.

I apologize if my earlier writings were not clear.

John

One Pocket John · Aug 11, 2018

I'm pretty much done with my thread here and will be ending my comments on the subject of Controlling the Mass. I've said all I can say and offered as much as I can offer.

If you feel the mass of your cue in front of your grip hand then you are pushing the mass. If you feel the mass of the cue behind your grip hand then you are pulling the mass.

According to the Little Book of Talent (which is the best book on the planet for learning how to learn) this new feeling and use of the cue will take about 8 weeks of practice before it becomes natural and I don't have to think about it any more, just shoot some pool.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and questions.

Many, many thanks to my friend and coach in New Jersey.

Don't ever give up on learning.

Over and Out.

John

Ralph Kramden · Aug 11, 2018

One Pocket John said:
Thanks for the kind words.

Just got back from Lowes with materials to build a new extension. It was important that the weight on the end of the extension be adjustable at all times.

I didn't put it all together yet because I wanted folks to see how simple it is to build one of these. Not even painted yet. I might go with flames or lightning bolt decals later.

The PVC end cap has a 3/8-16 x 2 hex bolt going thru it. The bolt is held in place by a 3/8" nut that is not removable. As needed to fit ones comfort (desired feel) additional 3/8" nuts can be added. The cap will be removable to either add more weight or to reduce the weight.

I forgot to mention that the overall length of the extension is 12"

Like I thought I spent $6.00

So, here is a picture before final assemble.

John

One Pocket John said:
I'm pretty much done with my thread here and will be ending my comments on the subject of Controlling the Mass. I've said all I can say and offered as much as I can offer.

If you feel the mass of your cue in front of your grip hand then you are pushing the mass. If you feel the mass of the cue behind your grip hand then you are pulling the mass.

According to the Little Book of Talent (which is the best book on the planet for learning how to learn) this new feeling and use of the cue will take about 8 weeks of practice before it becomes natural and I don't have to think about it any more, just shoot some pool.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and questions.

Many, many thanks to my friend and coach in New Jersey.

Don't ever give up on learning.

Over and Out.

John

1pj.. Could you measure each part you used and post it?.. Is your cue extended 12" longer, or is it just the extension length that's actually 12" long?

Thanks...

.

Low500 · Aug 15, 2018

One Pocket John said:
I still hold the cue with 1" of wrap showing which leaves 5" of mass behind my grip hand.
With the addition of the weighted extension and grip hand in the same position I now have 16" of weighted mass behind my grip hand.
The only way the upper arm will drop is if I allow the mass to continue forward. This of course depends on where I would like the cue ball to go.
With the addition of the weighted extension using the short stroking technique is working very well. My backstroke of the cue is about 4" or less.
Yes, I would have to say that the stroke is more of a pendulum type. Not the piston type.
I apologize if my earlier writings were not clear.
John

Your writings were very clear.
I wouldn't give 2 cents for worries over what "the upper arm" does.
I watched Jason Shaw fooling around on one of those Chinese 8 Ball tables and he was drilling 'em in pretty consistently. His upper arm drops, his elbow drops, and yet......the balls keep going in like being shot out of a gun.
I'll settle for some of that.
Life goes on....:thumbup:

LAMas · Aug 15, 2018

Low500 said:
Your writings were very clear.
I wouldn't give 2 cents for worries over what "the upper arm" does.
I watched Jason Shaw fooling around on one of those Chinese 8 Ball tables and he was drilling 'em in pretty consistently. His upper arm drops, his elbow drops, and yet......the balls keep going in like being shot out of a gun.
I'll settle for some of that.
Life goes on....:thumbup:

The cue shaft stays level...no dip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_3hzojhR-8

One Pocket John · Aug 16, 2018

New Extension Design

The middle section is graphite. Now if you wish to add or remove weight just unscrew the cap. I did however take advantage of a message from a fellow poster to use washers inside the cap. 5 washers equals an ounce. I also took the factory weight bolt out of the butt which weighed in at a whopping 0.4oz.

Just remember to pull the weight that is behind your grip hand forward and don't push the weight that is in front of your grip hand forward. Let the cue do all the work.

I failed to mention the individual weights of each piece. The long piece when separated from the end piece weighs 3.0oz. The end piece weighs 3.2oz. For a total weight of 6.2oz. The balance point of the whole extension is approx. 4" from the small end. It was important to me not to upset the balance of the cue without the extension which is 22" (because of the Balance Rite). With the extension on the cue the balance has only changed by approx. 3". I can live with that.

Over and out.

John

Low500 · Aug 16, 2018

LAMas said:
The cue shaft stays level...no dip.

I saw it dip lots of times.
So what ?, the balls still go into the pockets.
(you're sounding like one of those big shot "instructors"....who choke to death on the money ball 2 feet from the hole).
IMHO.

One Pocket John · Aug 16, 2018

Low500 said:
I saw it dip lots of times.
So what ?, the balls still go into the pockets.
(you're sounding like one of those big shot "instructors"....who choke to death on the money ball 2 feet from the hole).
IMHO.

Happens to the best. I've seen Alex P. miss a 2 foot shot to the corner once.

Just for you. I would like to get one to match my 05' Mustang GT.

It's Screaming Yellow.

http://californiascooterco.com/

John

Low500 · Aug 16, 2018

One Pocket John said:
Happens to the best. I've seen Alex P. miss a 2 foot shot to the corner once.
Just for you. I would like to get one to match my 05' Mustang GT. It's Screaming Yellow.
http://californiascooterco.com/
John

Oh man oh man......that is one fine looking "sicle" (as we used to pronounce it). Like "popsicle".
I had a Triumph double length seat adapted on mine so I could ride the girls around....."now honey just wrap your arms around my waist and hold me tight...here we go" (and all that stuff)
I'd have to get bazooka pipes on that varmint though and ditch that muffler.
I'm sure the neighbors would love that.
It's a beauty!
:thumbup:

goettlicher · Aug 17, 2018

Low500 said:
I saw it dip lots of times.
So what ?, the balls still go into the pockets.
(you're sounding like one of those big shot "instructors"....who choke to death on the money ball 2 feet from the hole).
IMHO.

Oh no, not two foot!
Maybe three foot and we do.

randyg

Straightpool_99 · Aug 23, 2018

There are many ways to play this game, and many philosophies as well. I've mostly been a cue "pusher", gripping the cue tighter as the years go by. I started messing around with pulling the cue and it works very well. I think I now may understand an Earl Strickland quote from a few years ago. He was asked about the many layers of tape on his cue and his reply was "I don't want to feel the cue". I think what he may mean is not feeling the strike of the cue ball. The heavier the cue, the softer in general the cues impact will feel. At a certain weight the cue just seems to go through the cue ball without slowing down much at all. The heavier cue weight seems to work well with the pulling the cue technique. It gives a very smooth feel to the stroke. The exension adds weight behind the hand and it adds weight, period.

I've never been a fan of full time extension use, but I do understand it more, now that I've messed around with the pulling technique.

One Pocket John · Aug 23, 2018

Straightpool_99 said:
There are many ways to play this game, and many philosophies as well. I've mostly been a cue "pusher", gripping the cue tighter as the years go by. I started messing around with pulling the cue and it works very well. I think I now may understand an Earl Strickland quote from a few years ago. He was asked about the many layers of tape on his cue and his reply was "I don't want to feel the cue". I think what he may mean is not feeling the strike of the cue ball. The heavier the cue, the softer in general the cues impact will feel. At a certain weight the cue just seems to go through the cue ball without slowing down much at all. The heavier cue weight seems to work well with the pulling the cue technique. It gives a very smooth feel to the stroke. The exension adds weight behind the hand and it adds weight, period.

I've never been a fan of full time extension use, but I do understand it more, now that I've messed around with the pulling technique.

Thanks 99.

Here is a very good example.

Watch the cue stroking difference between Shane and Manny. Shane is just kinda bunting the balls while Manny is forcing the balls.

Notice the extension on Shane's cue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFSF42BPvGE

Have a good one.

John

Controlling The Mass

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BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!

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I see dead balls

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