Here is a neat little device

bbb said:

what i am skeptical about is i think you can drop your elbow and still be in a straight line,,,

Absolutely you can drop your elbow on a shot, you have to pay attention that the tip of the elbow stays on the shot line.

the elbow is a "hinge joint " that can only go back and forth (in a straight line)
stroking off line i think occurs when the upper arm and shoulder go off line
or the wrist gets involved.

True. You will want to keep a high elbow. As your arm closes the wrist breaks downward and the cue levels out at contact with the CB.

the elbow brace is more designed so that the range of motion of the back and forth of the elbow is limited and you dont over extend after surgery ...I think )

This is the design and intent of the brace. But we are going to use it to deliver a straight stoke. So when you get it set the settings for full range of extension and flex.


anyway i have an open mind and will give it a try...
only 3 thousand hits for a straight stroke ......CANT WAIT....

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I know you have seen this before but Bert's advise in this video is really important to get your arm on the shot line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBFRln32uo

If you have any questions after a few days of practice come on back and post.

John

Dan White said:

In Kinister's tape he recommends to shift your body until the cue is straight and that this works for 100% of people. I have not found that to be true in my case. I think the hand holds the cue in a different way when addressing the cue ball in shot position than when you are standing up with the cue cradled in your hand. I'm sure his method will get most anybody pretty close, but not necessarily where the cue really needs to be. Maybe I'm 1 in a million, but I doubt it.

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Same thing here only from another player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPn3Wzp4NT8&t=14s

And then you have Snooker Coach Barry Stark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuaNdCU64R4&t=335s

I use my index finger as the trigger. I don't pull the trigger, I squeeze the trigger, like firing a rifle, you squeeze you don't pull. I have hearde the old saying........he couldn't pull the trigger on that shot.

John

Dan White said:

I wouldn't put much stock in what TH is saying as he probably heard it from Kinister or any one of a number of people. Not exactly an independent source. If you are a rank beginner or nearly so then this is good advice.

I think Barry's video kind of makes my point about the grip hand being so important.

Also, I have found that none of this guarantees that the cue will be lined up in the actual line of the shot. Your eyes have to be in the right position for that to happen, and "under your dominant eye" or "vision center" isn't necessarily the right place for that to happen. Like Barry says, we are all individual and you just have to work at it to get everything lined up for you.

It isn't easy unless, I suppose, you just happen to have perfect body mechanics by accident. I'm sure that doesn't happen a lot, though.

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An excellent post. We are all different. What works for one may not work for another.

Yeah, the eyes lead and the body follows. That topic is quite another issue.

John

All very good questions Dave.

SpiderWebComm said:

John, does this brace kind of force you to alter your stance and upper body angle which causes the upper arm/lower arm and elbow to work in more efficient manner?

Yes it does. I'll try to explain. I have white lines running diagonally from the corner pockets, looks like a big X. What I do (from a standing position) is to raise my hand up to my shoulder and align my arm with the white line, once I have this, with my hand still up to my shoulder I step into the shot with my left leg having my left shoulder lead as much as possible, comfortable and not over done into the shooting position. This locks my right shoulder and prevents the shoulder from coming around on the shot. Once I have done this I know my upper arm and lower arm are on the shot line.


IOW, is the upper arm further away from the body than you're used to and the upper body angled more to the side instead of straight on? Is it closer to the body?

I"ll have to do a video to answer this question accurately. I do them all the time no problem.
Okay, did a short video to check my alignment, I am one happy person, I now have the pro alignment. Bridge, grip, head, shoulder and tip of elbow are all on the shot line while stroking the cue back and forth.

How about the way you grip the butt with a looser grip or firmer grip...more fingers/less fingers? Does that allow the stroke to be better with the brace on or worse?

The grip is as shown in Barry Stark's videos.

If the brace could talk, what feedback does it give you from those changes?

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The brace allows for your shooting arm to be relaxed using only the triceps and lower bicep. The brace hinges in one direction only so you better make sure that the upper arm is on the shot line.


Played my weekly game today and I'm happy with the results so far. Going to give it 2 more weeks, that's a couple thousand balls for me.
This whole exercise has to become automatic with no thought, just look and shoot.

John

Just to lighten things up a little. Now this is funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkRNFyng06I

The brace that was given to me is fully adjustable for different length arms.

The attached photos show the length adjustments, notice that the part of the brace for the wrist is shaped like the letter "C" when your
wrist is strapped in there your wrist cannot turn which means that the "V" formed between the thumb and index finger must follow straight when closing the forearm.

John

bbb said:

well my device came yesterday
i bought a "good " one for the experiment
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PYHIXI0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1
i played for 15 minutes with it
but on full flexion the supports for my forearm and upper arm dug into my skin making it uncomfortable to use
i tried some more pure pendulum type strokes and some where on purpose where i droped me elbow to extend the the follow thru after contact with the cue ball
i will play around with the fit some

but my initial impression is still your elblow joint goes back and forth in a straght line
it is shoulder recruitment or wrist that gets the stroke off line.

This is why you lead with the none shooting shoulder, when done properly it locks your shooting shoulder in place and will not allow for the shoulder to come around on the shot, but it will allow for the upper arm to swivel in the shoulder socket.
If you adjust the lower forearm part of the brace as close to you hand as possible (should not interfere with the breaking of the wrist) this will take car of this issue.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZaejfsbMGc

even when you steer the cue stick

its more swinging your upper arm in or out
but the line of uppr arm to forearm stays the same
aligning wrong but stroking straight is a whole differnt problem

This is why you must work to align your stance to allow for the arm to naturally close


jmho
icbw

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Just try'in to help Larry.

John

SpiderWebComm said:

I agree completely. When I get into a little funk, my upper arm/elbow floats away from my body and the tip of the cue moves to the left on the CB. It's not the elbow causing it.

I've never used this device nor will because I use tuck and roll with the hand and wrist, BHE English (rarely or never parallel English), and pivoting which doesn't go well with the performance of it when this thing is on.

I could see a benefit to it if it forces a player to alter the stance and upper body angle to the ball so the upper arm doesn't float away from the shoulder to go back and forth in a more pendulum fashion straight back and forward along the setup and shot line. Yes, this is what the brace has done for me.

Lets face it, how many amateurs are addressing the shot in their optimal position?
It's there mainly from comfort, habit, and repetition which could be right or wrong for them.

Body style and body weight itself could play a big factor in how the upper arm and shoulder work to accommodate a thick chest and lats in the backstroke.

I could be wrong from not being attentive enough, but I've never seen an overweight or fat snooker player with a lack of flexibility to prevent getting low on the cue or the extra heft causing the upper arm to go off line.

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In blue.

John

Completed my third week Saturday using the brace. I am really happy with the results I'm seeing so far.

I hit about 200 balls a day with the brace on. At no time do I practice without the brace.

I play a friend of mine every Monday (without the brace of course) and pay attention to my PSR and cue delivery.

The first week I used the brace I had to work on how this thing could benefit my fundamentals. By the end of the first week I started seeing how to arrange my stance to accommodate the brace having my shooting arm close naturally on the shot line.

The second week I used the brace was just to keep on doing what I had found in the later part of the first week.

The third week everything started to become more automatic with my PSR and cue delivery.

Played my friend this past Monday and did very well. Driving home with a grin on my face knowing that I was headed down the right path using the brace.

So far I have hit approx. 4000 balls in practice using the brace.

I was only going to test the brace for a month but after seeing the results over the last three weeks I think the brace will be used everyday for as long as I play at home.

Just an update guy's I'm not suggesting that folks should run out and get one of these things all I'm saying here is that I have finally found something that has worked for ME after 7 years of working on my fundamentals.

Have fun out there.

John

Well, it's been 8 weeks and approx. 8000 balls shot using the Range of Motion Arm Brace.

I'm very happy with the end result. It was necessary to go the whole 8 weeks and a bunch of shots to allow for my muscle memory to store the new movement.

My arm only closes naturally one way. So what I did was build my stance around my arm
and wrist (the wrist can only fit into the brace one way which keeps the it inline with the forearm) and using Bert Kinister's vol.11 method of aligning my body to allow for my shooting arm to come down onto the shot line naturally.

It took a bit to get use too. In the Little Book of Talent the author states that it takes approx. 8 weeks to learn a new skill. I think he is right.

The only time I didn't wear the brace is at my weekly meeting with my friend to play 9 ball, 10 ball and 8 ball, takes about 2 1/2 hours to play.
This is where the rubber meets the road and results are seen. Did I beat him in all the games.......no, but I sure did look good losing.

Anyway, like I have said all along, I am not going to suggest that everyone run out and get one these braces. I'm only going to go on record saying that the brace has helped me build some really good and solid fundamentals.

Now the only thing left is to learn how to break, make balls, see patterns and play position.

I'm still going to use the brace to warm up ( about 30 minutes), then its coming off and begin practicing without the brace on.

It's been fun learning something new stuff.

Later.

John