2-ball Location in Rack When Using Template Rack for 9-Ball?

ChrisinNC · Oct 10, 2018

Using turtle template racks for our bigger monthly 9-ball tournaments, racking the 9-ball on the foot spot which means racking the 1-ball roughly 4 inches above the foot spot, breaker racks their own balls, I'm looking for one single requirement of where the 2-ball can or cannot be placed in the rack, to prevent the breaker (who is racking their own balls) from giving themselves an easier run-out, assuming a ball is made on the break?

I've heard some tours have required racking the 2-ball in the back, but that seems strange to me, as with a template rack doesn't the 2-ball usually ends up at the head end of the table, closer to where the 1-ball will end up if it is not pocketed?

When using a template rack with the breaker racking their own balls, to prevent easier run-outs, should the 2-ball be required to be racked in the very back spot, in either of the 2 spots in front of the 9-ball or in either of the 2 spots behind the 9-ball? Please, if possible, give some reasoning / explanation as to why you feel the 2-ball should or should not be racked in a certain location in the rack - Thanks

hang-the-9 · Oct 10, 2018

I have not seen a lot of 2 ball placement rules in tournaments, the only one I remember hearing about was the Hong Kong Challenge with Earl and Efren, they placed the 2 in the back so it would be the same for both players. I don't think they did it to make run outs harder. Unless the event is filled with A players or Pros I would not worry too much about the racking, just say "random" placement of the balls.

garczar · Oct 10, 2018

hang-the-9 said:
I have not seen a lot of 2 ball placement rules in tournaments, the only one I remember hearing about was the Hong Kong Challenge with Earl and Efren, they placed the 2 in the back so it would be the same for both players. I don't think they did it to make run outs harder. Unless the event is filled with A players or Pros I would not worry too much about the racking, just say "random" placement of the balls.

I agree. 1b in front, 9b in the middle and scatter the rest. Wouldn't worry about this at all.

Pushout · Oct 10, 2018

Shannon Daulton's tour puts the 2 in the back but I've never understood the reasoning for this myself. Putting the 2 in the second row certainly keeps it from going, that's where we would always rack the 5 ball in ring games to keep it from being made on the break.

Coop1701 · Oct 10, 2018

Pushout said:
Shannon Daulton's tour puts the 2 in the back but I've never understood the reasoning for this myself. Putting the 2 in the second row certainly keeps it from going, that's where we would always rack the 5 ball in ring games to keep it from being made on the break.

I have played in his and a few others where they required the 2 ball in the back. In 10 ball.., the 2 and 3 on both corners. I really don't think it matters unless you control from where the players break from also.

The reason I say this is.. My goal is to make the corner ball and 1 ball on the break. I do this about 65 percent of the time. Even with the 2 in the back. It always comes back up the table because I break from the side. If they told me I had to break from the box. Then it would be a little more problematic.

Black-Balled · Oct 10, 2018

Pushout said:
Shannon Daulton's tour puts the 2 in the back but I've never understood the reasoning for this myself. Putting the 2 in the second row certainly keeps it from going, that's where we would always rack the 5 ball in ring games to keep it from being made on the break.

Anybody who thinks there is a difference in a given rack coz one of the balls is missing, compared to another is wrong
You have to make all the balls in order, what is the difference?

Pretend you make 6 balls on a 9b break. What is the difference between the 1,4,7 left, vs the 7, 8, 9?

That said, the 2 in the back may increase the likelihood it gets loose (read: open), and that is where the 'easier' comes from, imo.

Presuming you break and make a ball above the 2, if the 2 is loose, after you make the 1, it should be easier to continue a run, coz you dont have to manufacture a shot on the 2.

Black-Balled · Oct 10, 2018

Bong-o!

And if the 1 misses the side, where does it go?

To the head rail, as does the 2.

Coop1701 said:
I have played in his and a few others where they required the 2 ball in the back. In 10 ball.., the 2 and 3 on both corners. I really don't think it matters unless you control from where the players break from also.

The reason I say this is.. My goal is to make the corner ball and 1 ball on the break. I do this about 65 percent of the time. Even with the 2 in the back. It always comes back up the table because I break from the side. If they told me I had to break from the box. Then it would be a little more problematic.

FeelDaShot · Oct 10, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Using turtle template racks for our bigger monthly 9-ball tournaments, racking the 9-ball on the foot spot which means racking the 1-ball roughly 4 inches above the foot spot, breaker racks their own balls, I'm looking for one single requirement of where the 2-ball can or cannot be placed in the rack, to prevent the breaker (who is racking their own balls) from giving themselves an easier run-out, assuming a ball is made on the break?

I've heard some tours have required racking the 2-ball in the back, but that seems strange to me, as with a template rack doesn't the 2-ball usually ends up at the head end of the table, closer to where the 1-ball will end up if it is not pocketed?

When using a template rack with the breaker racking their own balls, to prevent easier run-outs, should the 2-ball be required to be racked in the very back spot, in either of the 2 spots in front of the 9-ball or in either of the 2 spots behind the 9-ball? Please, if possible, give some reasoning / explanation as to why you feel the 2-ball should or should not be racked in a certain location in the rack - Thanks

The upcoming International 9-Ball Open racks the 9 on the spot like you and requires the 2 ball to be racked behind the 9. Here are the rules: http://www.accu-stats.com/USIO9Brules.pdf

Personally, I think you are getting carried away here. Unless you are running a pro event, I don't think you should make it so difficult to run out. Most amateurs can't run 9 balls with ball in hand.

Masayoshi · Oct 10, 2018

The 2 ball in the back should be a requirement because it prevents putting the 2 up top for a possible early 2-9 combo, which even lower level players can pull off often enough to influence a set greatly. Complete random racking would obviously be preferable, but it's too difficult to call someone on violation of that rule (and even if you do, the first violation will be a warning, so no real penalty).

Cornerman · Oct 10, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Using turtle template racks for our bigger monthly 9-ball tournaments, racking the 9-ball on the foot spot which means racking the 1-ball roughly 4 inches above the foot spot, breaker racks their own balls, I'm looking for one single requirement of where the 2-ball can or cannot be placed in the rack, to prevent the breaker (who is racking their own balls) from giving themselves an easier run-out, assuming a ball is made on the break?

I've heard some tours have required racking the 2-ball in the back, but that seems strange to me, as with a template rack doesn't the 2-ball usually ends up at the head end of the table, closer to where the 1-ball will end up if it is not pocketed?

When using a template rack with the breaker racking their own balls, to prevent easier run-outs, should the 2-ball be required to be racked in the very back spot, in either of the 2 spots in front of the 9-ball or in either of the 2 spots behind the 9-ball? Please, if possible, give some reasoning / explanation as to why you feel the 2-ball should or should not be racked in a certain location in the rack - Thanks

Just as a side note, if for some reason you had to spot the 9-ball (depending on you ruleset, or if someone pocketed the 9-ball on a push), the 9-ball would spot on the spot.

It would seem obvious, but someone on a televised match spot it where the 1- ball was racked. That’s ridonkulus.

Freddie <~~~ wasn’t me

ChrisinNC · Oct 10, 2018

Cornerman said:
Just as a side note, if for some reason you had to spot the 9-ball (depending on you ruleset, or if someone pocketed the 9-ball on a push), the 9-ball would spot on the spot.

It would seem obvious, but someone on a televised match spot it where the 1- ball was racked. That’s ridonkulus.

Freddie <~~~ wasn’t me

Fred, that's a good point. Just for these monthly tournaments, I'll be removing the master spot from it's normal position and placing the spot in the 1-ball rack location - which is exactly 3-7/8" above the normal spot. I would just assume we'd be spotting the 9-ball on the new higher spot location if it was made on the break, on a push out, or made on an illegal hit or foul. I don't see why that would be a problem, and just simpler for players to remember.

Based on these early responses, I'm thinking if we go with the high rack, we may not need to worry about any additional racking rules as to where the 2-ball or any other ball is placed in the rack, other than obviously the 1-ball and 9-ball. The higher racking spot just makes it much tougher to automatically pocket the wing ball when breaking from the rail with a template rack, if you rack the balls in the standard location.

Bob Jewett · Oct 10, 2018

The 2 ball is the most important ball for pattern racking so specifying where it goes removes (or requires) most of the pattern issues.

Cornerman · Oct 10, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Fred, that's a good point. Just for these monthly tournaments, I'll be removing the master spot from it's normal position and placing the spot in the 1-ball rack location - which is exactly 3-7/8" above the normal spot. I would just assume we'd be spotting the 9-ball on the new higher spot location if it was made on the break, on a push out, or made on an illegal hit or foul. I don't see why that would be a problem, and just simpler for players to remember.

Based on these early responses, I'm thinking if we go with the high rack, we may not need to worry about any additional racking rules as to where the 2-ball or any other ball is placed in the rack, other than obviously the 1-ball and 9-ball. The higher racking spot just makes it much tougher to automatically pocket the wing ball when breaking from the rail with a template rack, if you rack the balls in the standard location.

The simple problem is going rogue. Self-made rules spread like wildfire. I personally think of the spot as a known entity, so it should remain unchanged.

Racking the 9-ball on the spot (which has been an option now for years) changes nothing about the playing surface. I like that idea.

Freddie <~~~ trying to go with less confusion

ChrisinNC · Oct 10, 2018

Cornerman said:
The simple problem is going rogue. Self-made rules spread like wildfire. I personally think of the spot as a known entity, so it should remain unchanged.

Racking the 9-ball on the spot (which has been an option now for years) changes nothing about the playing surface. I like that idea.

Freddie <~~~ trying to go with less confusion

So to clarify, are you saying you like the idea of spotting the 9-ball (if it is pocketed illegally) on the new higher spot location, or on the original lower spot location?

To me, it is critical that a Master spot covers up the spot where the 1-ball is racked for breaking, to protect the cloth and keep from wearing a hole through the cloth. Fred, you have to remember that I'm always speaking from the viewpoint of a room owner, trying to do everything I possibly can to keep the table, the cloth, the balls, etc. in as mint condition as possible. Racking the 9-ball on the traditional Master spot location which puts the 1-ball directly on top of the cloth 4 inches above the spot with nothing it to protect it is not an option for doing in my pool room.

I can live with re-spotting the 9-ball in either of those two locations, but it just seems simpler to re-spot the 9-ball on the clearly visible Master spot as opposed to a marked spot 3-7/8" below the Master spot, and I'm certainly not going to put two Master spots on the tables - that would look hideous.

ShortBusRuss · Oct 10, 2018

Coop1701 said:
My goal is to make the corner ball and 1 ball on the break. I do this about 65 percent of the time.

Absolutely, 100% guaranteed that you do not make the corner ball and 1 ball on the break 65% of the time, and YES.. I will bet on it.

You'd probably be the best player in America if this were true.

Black-Balled · Oct 10, 2018

Bob Jewett said:
The 2 ball is the most important ball for pattern racking so specifying where it goes removes (or requires) most of the pattern issues.

But you can put the 2 on the wing that goes and then use the 3 in its place.

You used-ta not learn that smarts for free.

Black-Balled · Oct 10, 2018

ShortBusRuss said:
Absolutely, 100% guaranteed that you do not make the corner ball and 1 ball on the break 65% of the time, and YES.. I will bet on it.

You'd probably be the best player in America if this were true.

It was overstatement. Dont hurt um, hammer.

Bob Jewett · Oct 10, 2018

Black-Balled said:
But you can put the 2 on the wing that goes and then use the 3 in its place.

You used-ta not learn that smarts for free.

The 2-ball rule when it is used says that the 2 ball is directly behind the 1 and 9 on the back point of the rack. It cannot be wingman.

jrctherake · Oct 11, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Using turtle template racks for our bigger monthly 9-ball tournaments, racking the 9-ball on the foot spot which means racking the 1-ball roughly 4 inches above the foot spot, breaker racks their own balls, I'm looking for one single requirement of where the 2-ball can or cannot be placed in the rack, to prevent the breaker (who is racking their own balls) from giving themselves an easier run-out, assuming a ball is made on the break?

I've heard some tours have required racking the 2-ball in the back, but that seems strange to me, as with a template rack doesn't the 2-ball usually ends up at the head end of the table, closer to where the 1-ball will end up if it is not pocketed?

When using a template rack with the breaker racking their own balls, to prevent easier run-outs, should the 2-ball be required to be racked in the very back spot, in either of the 2 spots in front of the 9-ball or in either of the 2 spots behind the 9-ball? Please, if possible, give some reasoning / explanation as to why you feel the 2-ball should or should not be racked in a certain location in the rack - Thanks

No contest, 2 in the back. Otherwise, any decent player will run out.

This is my experience:

2 directly behind either side of 1 ball = breaker can make 2 ball go cross side.

2 on wings = obviously bad idea.

2 ball behind 9 ball = 2 ends up around center table to side pocket on medium break.

2 ball in back= yes, most likely go up table but if kissed, lol ... nightmare for breaker.

If I play 9 ball ghost and put the 2 anywhere but in back ....lol... well, the ghost is toast. When 2 is in back with 9 on spot, ghost at least has chance.

My 2cent...

jrctherake · Oct 11, 2018

Pushout said:
Shannon Daulton's tour puts the 2 in the back but I've never understood the reasoning for this myself. Putting the 2 in the second row certainly keeps it from going, that's where we would always rack the 5 ball in ring games to keep it from being made on the break.

Keeping the 2 from going is not the issue, its controlling where it goes that is much more powerful.

Putting 5 behind 1 was mostly safe cause breaker had to run 4 balls to get to it. Again, with 2 there, well, it makes it much, much easier to get out if breaker is very skilled.

2-ball Location in Rack When Using Template Rack for 9-Ball?

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