Stroke Question - Upper arm

skipbales · Dec 14, 2019

Island Drive said:
Early 80's Reds in Houston, I Knew I had a problem with my grip. I spent a couple days watching All the pros, and how they held the cue butt. I changed and after 3 months of play, I fixed it. I would do this also. Go to a pro event and watch and video if you can.
When the Camel pro tour was in existence, I videoed every great players grip and swing. All different but similarities are prevalent. good luck

Good thoughts. I probably need to find others who are my build and see what they are doing instead of watching the ones who do what I wish I could do. As funny as it sounds, CJ spent over 1 hour of a 4 hour lesson telling me to "stick my butt out". Whatever I was supposed to be doing, It sounds so simple but after an hour of trying I was so sore I had to stop him so we could move on to something else. I simply could not do it.

skipbales · Dec 14, 2019

Additional thoughts

After all the video watching I think I have a solution but want to hear what you all think.

I took pool back up 6 years ago after a 35 year lay off. I started by watching training videos. Without exception the instruction for building the stance began with putting my right foot on the shot line. It turns out this keeps my body very close to the shot line and the cue stick close to my body. That is why my upper body is over the stick when I shoot. It is a good compact feeling as my swing arm is close to my body. But it does not give me much clearance. There is enough if I take a mid length stroke but not for a power stroke unless I also stand more upright. This is what got me looking at the upper arm and elbow position.

It turns out those are not the solutions for me. To get the position with only my head over the cue and not my upper body, all I have to do is start with my right foot an inch or so left (I am right handed) of the shot line. Maybe my toe can even touch it, I just can't put my foot exactly on the line. Then when I drop down into the shot with my head over the cue looking straight down the shaft, only my head is over the cue, not my chest. I have plenty of clearance and the stroke, of any length, does not hit my chest.

The question is, is this an acceptable stance? I do find my aim is now slightly different and I will need to get used to this re-positioning. I don't have that compact feeling of my arm against my side and my balance is slightly different. I can live with all these changes and believe I can quickly adapt to this new stance. But I don't want to create 3 new problems and a bad stance to solve one old problem with some lack of clearance.

I went to Wal-Mart to buy a camcorder and the clerk told me to use my phone. Duhhh so I ordered a tripod selfie stick to hold it and will post a video as soon as it arrives.

Patrick Johnson · Dec 14, 2019

skipbales said:
CJ spent over 1 hour of a 4 hour lesson telling me to "stick my butt out". ... I simply could not do it.

skipbales said:
...all I have to do is start with my right foot an inch or so left (I am right handed) of the shot line.

Sounds like what CJ wanted you to do - rotate your hip/torso out of the way of your stroke (stick your butt out). You might need to make another tweak or two to accommodate, like shoulder and/or head angle. For me it took some time to get used to not having my upper arm locked against my side.

pj
chgo

bbb · Dec 14, 2019

skipbales said:
After all the video watching I think I have a solution but want to hear what you all think.

I took pool back up 6 years ago after a 35 year lay off. I started by watching training videos. Without exception the instruction for building the stance began with putting my right foot on the shot line. It turns out this keeps my body very close to the shot line and the cue stick close to my body. That is why my upper body is over the stick when I shoot. It is a good compact feeling as my swing arm is close to my body. But it does not give me much clearance. There is enough if I take a mid length stroke but not for a power stroke unless I also stand more upright. This is what got me looking at the upper arm and elbow position.

It turns out those are not the solutions for me. To get the position with only my head over the cue and not my upper body, all I have to do is start with my right foot an inch or so left (I am right handed) of the shot line. Maybe my toe can even touch it, I just can't put my foot exactly on the line. Then when I drop down into the shot with my head over the cue looking straight down the shaft, only my head is over the cue, not my chest. I have plenty of clearance and the stroke, of any length, does not hit my chest.

The question is, is this an acceptable stance? I do find my aim is now slightly different and I will need to get used to this re-positioning. I don't have that compact feeling of my arm against my side and my balance is slightly different. I can live with all these changes and believe I can quickly adapt to this new stance. But I don't want to create 3 new problems and a bad stance to solve one old problem with some lack of clearance.

I went to Wal-Mart to buy a camcorder and the clerk told me to use my phone. Duhhh so I ordered a tripod selfie stick to hold it and will post a video as soon as it arrives.

sounds good to me
i am not an instructor

skipbales · Dec 14, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
Sounds like what CJ wanted you to do - rotate your hip/torso out of the way of your stroke (stick your butt out). You might need to make another tweak or two to accommodate, like shoulder and/or head angle. For me it took some time to get used to not having my upper arm locked against my side.

pj
chgo

watching videos on stance by APA Lee Brett and Ozone Billiards and both of them started with the back foot on the line but stepped forward and to the right instead of left. The both ended up with the left foot on or very near the line as well as the back foot. The other videos I watched always stepped away from the line. Stepping towards the line with the front foot turns the body and creates more room. The body is angled to the line with the head over the cue but the body is not.

I watched a match between Efren and Chris Melling. Chris approaches the line from about a 45 degree angle and turns his head sharply to the left. Chis is a big guy, like me, and probably needs the clearance as well.

Most all of the pros are turned more to the right (than I am) with their body then the head turns back left to sight down the cue. Some of the very thin players have their body turned more parallel to the line but they still seem to keep their body totally out of the way. Now that I am focusing on it I see I am facing forward more then most players.

Bob Jewett · Dec 14, 2019

skipbales said:
... Chris approaches the line from about a 45 degree angle and turns his head sharply to the left. Chis is a big guy, like me, and probably needs the clearance as well. ...

It looks to me like Chris has his cue rubbing on his chest for at least some shots.

skipbales · Dec 15, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
It looks to me like Chris has his cue rubbing on his chest for at least some shots.

Hey Bob,
Yes. It is hard when you are a big guy and not very flexible. Reaching plays a role too. When you don't have chance for a "normal" stance everyone leans over the cue at times. Those who are thin don't seem to need to worry about it. And if you don't take the cue back very far it is also not an issue.

Have you noticed any changes in your stance from years ago? I don't remember having any clearance issues 40 years ago. Of course there are a lot of things I don't remember from a lot less time than that. :smile:

Island Drive · Dec 15, 2019

skipbales said:
Good thoughts. I probably need to find others who are my build and see what they are doing instead of watching the ones who do what I wish I could do. As funny as it sounds, CJ spent over 1 hour of a 4 hour lesson telling me to "stick my butt out". Whatever I was supposed to be doing, It sounds so simple but after an hour of trying I was so sore I had to stop him so we could move on to something else. I simply could not do it.

That offsets/equalizes forward and rearward weight when down and in shooting position, like a teeter totter. But ones size/girth have a big say if that's good for one and not for another.

Bob Jewett · Dec 15, 2019

skipbales said:
Hey Bob,
Yes. It is hard when you are a big guy and not very flexible. Reaching plays a role too. When you don't have chance for a "normal" stance everyone leans over the cue at times. Those who are thin don't seem to need to worry about it. And if you don't take the cue back very far it is also not an issue.

Have you noticed any changes in your stance from years ago? I don't remember having any clearance issues 40 years ago. Of course there are a lot of things I don't remember from a lot less time than that. :smile:

I think I did not express myself clearly. I believe that Chris absolutely intends to have his cue rubbing on his chest, just like Joe Davis.

My main change with age seems to be that it is harder for me to get low on the cue until I've played ten or twenty minutes.

BilliardsAbout · Dec 16, 2019

skipbales said:
I spent some time observing the pros on youtube to see why they don't have clearance issues and feel like I may have stumbled on to something.

The players who have their chin right down on the stick and are really bent over only have 3 points on or above the cue stick. The bridge hand, the head only, and the back hand. The stick does not pass under their chest at all. Of course they could not have a clearance issue. These players tend to be the young and thin players. Shane and a young Effren and a lot of the new young players.

The players who have the stick closer to their body and are leaning over the cue so it passes beneath their body tend to play a little taller. I watched a 2015 video of Bob Jewitt and see that Bob seems to be slightly more erect than he was even a few years ago. Dr. Dave plays the cue underneath his body and even when he is bent way over he is still taller than those players who put their chin on the cue and stare straight down it. Dr. Dave is tall but pretty flexible. I am 72 years old and am probably trying to use a stance I am not flexible enough to accommodate.

I have tried to get my entire body out of the line of the shot but have trouble with balance when I lean that far over and turn my head so much to the left to look straight down the cue. I am beginning to think I need to re-analyze my stance, from how I step into the shot to how tall I stand. I may just be an old inflexible guy trying to adopt a young man's stance. Some can do it. Stan Shuffett seems to get his entire body out of the line and have his head straight over the shaft.

If any of you have dealt with aging and changing your stance I would appreciate the comments.

Don't cause neck and back pain by twisting your neck or torso to lower your head to see the shots. You can see the shots well by adjusting your feet and legs to accommodate everything so that your lower back gains strength by bending to the table. All pool stances ought to have a straight lower back and not cause back or neck pain.

skipbales · Dec 16, 2019

Close to a solution

My stance is evolving and all of your comments are helping me get there. Thank you.

Turning my body slightly to the right by either moving the left foot forward (to the right), keeping it pointed down the line of the shot, or my back foot back a little (both have the same effect). This gives me clearance. It presents a slightly different perspective on the shot even though I "feel" like I am positioned the same. I missed a lot of shots yesterday but by the end of the day seemed to have it worked out. So I have a remaining question now. I have two choices.:

1. I change my stance for all shots where a normal stance is possible to this newer stance.
2. Stay with my original stance except where I need clearance for a bigger stroke.

Varying stance is something we all have to do all the time anyway to shoot off rails. over balls, long reach or using a bridge. So I think I could incorporate that into my game. BUT, having said that, my game is weaker with each of the above mentioned variations. So, maybe, it is better to make it my normal stance so I practice it more.

Your comments here would be appreciated.

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to give me input.
Skip

skipbales · Dec 16, 2019

UPDATE video

Here is the video you asked for https://youtu.be/GNJqnoqdPms It is a collection of excerpts from the video I sent to Tor Lowry for my Patreon program.

I apologize for the quality. I have never used the camera on my phone.

I learned a lot from watching the video itself.
1. I need to lose 50 lbs
2. I should record and watch myself more often
3. I come up out of way too many shots. I don't mind the break but not the others.
4. The cue tip does not end up on the cloth as often as it should.

Now you guys and gals can tear it apart from there.

Ralph Kramden · Dec 16, 2019

skipbales said:
Here is the video you asked for https://youtu.be/GNJqnoqdPms It is a collection of excerpts from the video I sent to Tor Lowry for my Patreon program.

I apologize for the quality. I have never used the camera on my phone.

I learned a lot from watching the video itself.
1. I need to lose 50 lbs
2. I should record and watch myself more often
3. I come up out of way too many shots. I don't mind the break but not the others.
4. The cue tip does not end up on the cloth as often as it should.

Now you guys and gals can tear it apart from there.

I really wouldn't worry about your cue tip, ending up on the cloth.
I'd practice a straight lined up cue and follow through on that line.

When your cue is aligned down the shot line, follow through..... like your cue strokes toward the OB.

Stroke looks crooked now & your cue tip hits offset on the CB. Not a instructor. Just my observation.

Play well.

.

JoeyInCali · Dec 16, 2019

You need to have a session with an instructor.
Looks to me you lack fluidity . Your stroke is more like slow poke.
Looks like you are standing away from the shot line.

skipbales · Dec 16, 2019

Ralph Kramden said:
I really wouldn't worry about your cue tip, ending up on the cloth.

Stroke looks crooked now & your cue tip hits offset on the CB. Not a instructor. Just my observation.

Play well.

.

I am not sure how much the camera angle affects that. Dr. Dave shows videos that show strokes that look way off but are dead straight. Not saying that is it. Just saying it is hard to get that part good on a video and I have no clue how to get a straight line video.

JoeyInCali · Dec 16, 2019

skipbales said:
I am not sure how much the camera angle affects that. Dr. Dave shows videos that show strokes that look way off but are dead straight. Not saying that is it. Just saying it is hard to get that part good on a video and I have no clue how to get a straight line video.

Try drawing the cue ball dead straight back on a 4-diamond distance straight in shot.
Or follow the ball to the hole and scratch .
See if you can do it in high percentage.

FranCrimi · Dec 19, 2019

GoldenFlash777 said:
"Elbow Drop" is just a big humbug from instrictors.
Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Eddie Talyor, Steve Mizerak, all dropped their elbows most of the time to get a good follow through.
Don't worry about it. Just shoot the balls in the holes.

This is an uninformed comment. Anyone reading this thread should ignore it.

FranCrimi · Dec 19, 2019

skipbales said:
In all the training on stroke I have had and watched on video I don't see much mention of the upper arm. It is all about the forearm hanging straight down and not dropping the elbow. But looking at my stroke in a mirror I realized there could be a lot of variance in where my elbow is positioned. I saw most videos the players are bent way over and the upper arm is pretty straight and in line with their back. I have always let keeping the cue level and deciding where I want to hit the cue ball determine this and wherever my elbow was my forearm dropped straight down from there. But I notice my upper arm is not necessarily parallel to the floor. It may slope down quite a bit. The lower I hit the cue ball the lower everything gets as I keep the cue straight. But I COULD still hit low with my upper arm higher, I would just be hitting more down on the cue ball with a less level stroke.

I literally never considered raising my elbow. I just let the forearm swing from wherever the elbow was comfortable with a level cue. If I lift up on my elbow the cue tip points more down and I have to slightly raise my bridge. It is not as comfortable with my elbow higher and you may wonder why I would consider lifting it. The reason is clearance. I often hit my chest in the back swing and that knocks my stick offline. I have to stand a little more upright or move some way or another to get an unrestricted swing. This happens mostly on very long take backs for power draw or force follow shots.

So I get the forearm hangs straight down and the upper arm doesn't move and the elbow doesn't drop. But should the upper arm be parallel to the floor or does that even matter?

Your upper arm position at address depends on how low you stand to the shot. It does not have to be parallel to the floor. In fact, it rarely is. Dropping your upper arm with your stroke is fine, and yes, it's also totally fine to drop it before impact. You just have to understand what that means, why it's done, and how to do it. It's not necessary to do it on every shot. Try to do only what's necessary. It's more efficient that way. But keep in mind: You should avoid moving your upper arm up during your backstroke. The motion is downward only, and only on the forward stroke.

skipbales · Dec 19, 2019

JoeyInCali said:
Try drawing the cue ball dead straight back on a 4-diamond distance straight in shot.
Or follow the ball to the hole and scratch .
See if you can do it in high percentage.

To be clear, how are you measuring 4 diamonds?

for Draw two diamonds to the cue ball and two diamonds back would be a 4 diamond draw as the draw wears off due to drag on the way to the object ball. A one diamond form the object ball and 3 back would also be 4 diamonds.

For follow it gets easier with a little distance as the drag helps you just like it hurts you in draw.

So two diamonds to the object ball and two more to the hole is a little easier than one to the object ball and 3 more to the hole.

I will set some up and see how I do. I have done these before but not for a long time.

skipbales · Dec 19, 2019

FranCrimi said:
Your upper arm position at address depends on how low you stand to the shot. It does not have to be parallel to the floor. In fact, it rarely is. Dropping your upper arm with your stroke is fine, and yes, it's also totally fine to drop it before impact. You just have to understand what that means, why it's done, and how to do it. It's not necessary to do it on every shot. Try to do only what's necessary. It's more efficient that way. But keep in mind: You should avoid moving your upper arm up during your backstroke. The motion is downward only, and only on the forward stroke.

Hey Fran Merry Christmas!! I see your point and believe I was on a wrong track worrying about upper arm position all together. Here is what I discovered please tell me what you think.

I re-watched some stance videos, in particular one of Tor Lowry's. Here is what I learned and changed.

Before I started with the center of my body on the shot line. I think it should have been my stick, at my side, on the line. This moves me left some. (right handed).

Before I put the ball of my foot on the shot line, now I put my toes on the line.

Before my right foot was 30-45 degrees to the shot line. Now it is closer to 90.

Before I stepped forward and to the left with my left foot, more left than forward. Now I step more forward and only a little left with it. I noticed Tor's feet were closer together than mine.

Before my left foot was parallel to the shot line, it still is.

These changes just turn me a small amount but it is enough to give me clearance. It also feels like I am "sticking my butt out" when I drop into the shot. I don't lead the move with my butt but it does have more of that affect.

I end up with my body more left of the cue than over it. This gives me clearance and with my head turned to look straight down the cue it feels pretty good, not strained. My cue is away from my body and I kind of miss that security of having my body to help guide my stroke but that may be like training wheels on a bicycle. Not sure.

Stroke Question - Upper arm

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