Outrageous Ruling at Hard Times TADCUP

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Chris Santana
Silver Member
kvinbrwr said:
I'm currently watching "The Good Wife" so I assure you , I know the law. Now that show is generally in NY, but still I think this whole situation falls into the Best Evidence doctrine. We here at AZ, being the judge and jury in all matters pool, deserve the best evidence and I just don't think the OP relating what he was told rather than what he saw is what we deserve. Please don't make me cite case law from what Season and Episode.

To more important matters. Who won? Did he get a TAD cue and how much does he want for it? Shall we bash the winner for sandbagging and maybe suggest collusion between the winner and the TD and/or promoters now or wait until the cue deal is finished?
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Let me be clear here:
I did not post this thread to be judge jury and executioner. I am merely providing the information that everyone else knows to be true, and making it public. The perpetrator himself has seen this thread and has not argued against what has been noted. I have not skewed the facts in any way.

kvinbrwr;429245, you seem to think that this is a courtroom and that my statements need to be legally obtained or something. I am not suggesting any particular course of action be taken here. If perpetrators are allowed to do this to an honest field of 95 other players, get away with it, AND THEN GET THE SYMPATHY OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU, then our sport would be in even worse shape than it currently is.
 
kvinbrwr

kvinbrwr

Skee Ball Monster Playa
Gold Member
SkyscraperChris said:
Let me be clear here:
I did not post this thread to be judge jury and executioner. I am merely providing the information that everyone else knows to be true, and making it public. The perpetrator himself has seen this thread and has not argued against what has been noted. I have not skewed the facts in any way.

kvinbrwr;429245, you seem to think that this is a courtroom and that my statements need to be legally obtained or something. I am not suggesting any particular course of action be taken here. If perpetrators are allowed to do this to an honest field of 95 other players, get away with it, AND THEN GET THE SYMPATHY OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU, then our sport would be in even worse shape than it currently is.
Click to expand...

You are right, I'm the problem with pool.

Hey, you called the guy a perp, not me. Also, I'm not quite sure where you saw me give symapthy to anyone here (except that beauty OMGWTF of course), but you are right, you aren't making any cases here.

Thanks

Kevin
 
Mickey Qualls

Mickey Qualls

You study the watch......
Silver Member
cardiac kid said:
Brian,

He's one for you. Many years ago I played in a tournament directed by the great, late Joe Kerr of Joker Promotions. Looked at the board. Showed a bye. My second match was called. Was handily in front with victory very near. Joe walks up to me and says there has been an error. I did have a first round match. Late prepaid player. Turned out to be one of the top players in the event. Wound up losing a close match. Did I have a choice? What should I have done? Play? Walk out? Never play in one of his events again? Seems like an easy answer. Believe me, it isn't!

Lyn
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I think your scenario is a bit of a different animal, Lyn.

I get what you're saying here, but it seems your example was an error on the TD's part.
That said, the TD (in my opinion) in your example should have A) given you the option, and/or B) given the "late" player (prepaid or not) either his money back or left him on the one-loss side.
And unless the "Late Prepaid Player" called the TD to let him know that they were running late (in which case the TD would have/could have 'postponed' your match with him), then the LPP is... quite frankly... LATE.

If that's the case, then the LPP should be on time if he wants to play his first match.

To try and align your example with the OP's a bit more:

What if (instead of the prepaid player being late), you had played said prepaid player and beaten him/her ? And then that player chose to go to the TD or promoter, who then suggested that you play a rematch ?

I think the question posed such as this is more in line with what the OP has presented...

Mickey <--- :cool:
 
uwate

uwate

daydreaming about pool
Silver Member
a TD i know in miami once allowed a player A who was eliminated in a double elim handicapped event to continue on after his opponent (player B) said he was going home when the match ended. So its gets near the finals and player C raises hell about Player A basically playing a triple elimination tournament.

TD told me later it was a horrible mistake and he will never allow it again.

There does seem to be alot of drama at the TAD cup. I recall there being drama there last year too.
 
kvinbrwr

kvinbrwr

Skee Ball Monster Playa
Gold Member
Mickey Qualls said:
I think your scenario is a bit of a different animal, Lyn.

I get what you're saying here, but it seems your example was an error on the TD's part.
That said, the TD (in my opinion) in your example should have A) given you the option, and/or B) given the "late" player (prepaid or not) either his money back or left him on the one-loss side.
And unless the "Late Prepaid Player" called the TD to let him know that they were running late (in which case the TD would have/could have 'postponed' your match with him), then the LPP is... quite frankly... LATE.

If that's the case, then the LPP should be on time if he wants to play his first match.

To try and align your example with the OP's a bit more:

What if (instead of the prepaid player being late), you had played said prepaid player and beaten him/her ? And then that player chose to go to the TD or promoter, who then suggested that you play a rematch ?

I think the question posed such as this is more in line with what the OP has presented...

Mickey <--- :cool:
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Mickey

Either Lyn's or the OP's scenario would leave me feeling pretty raw.

I think as Jay would testify, being a TD is tough, and handicaps just make the job tougher. That being said, one would expect that once a match was in the books, it would be in the books.

Kevin
 
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Chris Santana
Silver Member
uwate said:
a TD i know in miami once allowed a player A who was eliminated in a double elim handicapped event to continue on after his opponent (player B) said he was going home when the match ended. So its gets near the finals and player C raises hell about Player A basically playing a triple elimination tournament.

TD told me later it was a horrible mistake and he will never allow it again.

There does seem to be alot of drama at the TAD cup. I recall there being drama there last year too.
Click to expand...

What was last year's drama?
 
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dundeewizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is the strangest thing I have ever heard. And makes my next question even more important,
I am not too far away from Sacremento and was planning on going to Hardtimes for the first time as it looks amazing. Although I'd like to watch the top players I would like to play in a tournament.

Which one should I play in? Weekly or Monthly?

What level will I be? I class myself a B player but am not sure as I am new to the area and the level seems somehwat higher than where I was before. I do not want to make the trip and get shafted in this rating system.
 
kvinbrwr

kvinbrwr

Skee Ball Monster Playa
Gold Member
SkyscraperChris said:
What was last year's drama?
Click to expand...

Last year the winner (an AZ member) was accused of sandbagging his handicap (I would imagine that was also true the year before and the year before etc). The case made in that situation was he was an out-of town player and the TD didn't know his speed and the player had misrepresented. There was some posting of images of handicap cards from another amateur "tour" etc.

The best part for me was when the winner (or perp) posted the TAD cue he was presented
for sale and was accused as trying to sell stolen property.

Kevin
 
TheNewSharkster

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can anybody explain why the TD allowed the event organizer to influence him?

I know pointing fingers can be counter productive but at the end of the day the match was replayed because the TD allowed it. The TD is the last line of defense against this BS. If he lets it get through he should be the one to blame. Yes, he was in a bad situation. If it were me I would keep my integrity and walk. Let the stupid event organizer figure the shit out.
 
Ken_4fun

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Happens all the time and it isn't a big deal.

Tons of stuff are not fair and I can make a list...okay I will name a few.

1. Tournament starts at 12:00, Calcutta at 11:00. Telephone calls are made and folks announce that "Bob" and "John" are on the way but aren't here yet. Calcutta goes off and then at 12:00. Bob and John aren't here yet, we wait and the tournament either starts late or we "go around them" until they show up.

or

2. Calcutta starts at 11:00, we go through the Calcutta , NOW, a couple more players shows up. I have bought a couple and now two top players show up and they say lets let them in. You can buy them if you want, so its fair right? No because the guys I bought now finish 4 and 5 and these ya-hoos finish ahead and push my horses out of the Calcutta!

or

3 WPBA - Seeding players. geez, no wonder the same folks always end in the finals. ALL YOU ALLISON lovers out there, before you tell me how great she, tell me how her top finishes were in the DCC were there ISNT seeding in tournaments.

or

4. You and your friend go about 100 miles for a regional tournament and there are about 64 players in the tournament. IN THE FIRST ROUND, you play your friend. HOW MANY FREAKIN TIMES DOES THIS HAPPEN? (Often if you are me). Do you have ANY idea the odds of this happening once? twice? Something is shady and it happens often, very often.

My point? There are tons of $hit in pool at all levels. Did you friend get a dirty deal? Yep he did. YOU can either get over it, or not. But this isn't the first time and it sure as hell aint going to be the last time.

Ken
 
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Chris Santana
Silver Member
Ken_4fun said:
Happens all the time and it isn't a big deal.

Tons of stuff are not fair and I can make a list...okay I will name a few.

1. Tournament starts at 12:00, Calcutta at 11:00. Telephone calls are made and folks announce that "Bob" and "John" are on the way but aren't here yet. Calcutta goes off and then at 12:00. Bob and John aren't here yet, we wait and the tournament either starts late or we "go around them" until they show up.

or

2. Calcutta starts at 11:00, we go through the Calcutta , NOW, a couple more players shows up. I have bought a couple and now two top players show up and they say lets let them in. You can buy them if you want, so its fair right? No because the guys I bought now finish 4 and 5 and these ya-hoos finish ahead and push my horses out of the Calcutta!

or

3 WPBA - Seeding players. geez, no wonder the same folks always end in the finals. ALL YOU ALLISON lovers out there, before you tell me how great she, tell me how her top finishes were in the DCC were there ISNT seeding in tournaments.

or

4. You and your friend go about 100 miles for a regional tournament and there are about 64 players in the tournament. IN THE FIRST ROUND, you play your friend. HOW MANY FREAKIN TIMES DOES THIS HAPPEN? (Often if you are me). Do you have ANY idea the odds of this happening once? twice? Something is shady and it happens often, very often.

My point? There are tons of $hit in pool at all levels. Did you friend get a dirty deal? Yep he did. YOU can either get over it, or not. But this isn't the first time and it sure as hell aint going to be the last time.

Ken
Click to expand...

Sounds like you live life passively. "He did a shitty thing. Let's shut up about it and move on with life. While we're at it, let's not make a big deal about it, this way it can happen more and more."

I am not a sheep. I will not sit by idly and let this happen. Nor do I think any of the players think the way you do, who paid $50 or $75 to enter.
 
kvinbrwr

kvinbrwr

Skee Ball Monster Playa
Gold Member
Ken_4fun said:
Happens all the time and it isn't a big deal.

Tons of stuff are not fair and I can make a list...okay I will name a few.

1. Tournament starts at 12:00, Calcutta at 11:00. Telephone calls are made and folks announce that "Bob" and "John" are on the way but aren't here yet. Calcutta goes off and then at 12:00. Bob and John aren't here yet, we wait and the tournament either starts late or we "go around them" until they show up.

or

2. Calcutta starts at 11:00, we go through the Calcutta , NOW, a couple more players shows up. I have bought a couple and now two top players show up and they say lets let them in. You can buy them if you want, so its fair right? No because the guys I bought now finish 4 and 5 and these ya-hoos finish ahead and push my horses out of the Calcutta!

or

3 WPBA - Seeding players. geez, no wonder the same folks always end in the finals. ALL YOU ALLISON lovers out there, before you tell me how great she, tell me how her top finishes were in the DCC were there ISNT seeding in tournaments.

or

4. You and your friend go about 100 miles for a regional tournament and there are about 64 players in the tournament. IN THE FIRST ROUND, you play your friend. HOW MANY FREAKIN TIMES DOES THIS HAPPEN? (Often if you are me). Do you have ANY idea the odds of this happening once? twice? Something is shady and it happens often, very often.

My point? There are tons of $hit in pool at all levels. Did you friend get a dirty deal? Yep he did. YOU can either get over it, or not. But this isn't the first time and it sure as hell aint going to be the last time.

Ken
Click to expand...

Ken

No kidding, and not just pool. Life is unfair.

I have Time Warner cable. They are in a dispute with CBS over fees, so last night, I get no Big Brother! I'm current on my cable bill (sorta). NOT FAIR!

Kevin
 
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dundeewizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
what is the difference between giving the 8 and the last 2? Isn't the last 2 the 8 &9 so therefore whats the difference?
 
uwate

uwate

daydreaming about pool
Silver Member
This weekend I played in a tournament in jupiter florida. Flyer states amateur only, no AA players allowed.

So they are doing the calcutta and player Z shows up. Its a well known player who is AA. He evidently thought about his chances of being allowed because when he called in to the TD he gave his first name and middle name instead of his last name.

So they are conducting the calcutta and its nearly done. They come to player Z and he walks in and everyone is like wtf? TD is told immediately by players that player A totally is AA and that if TD allows him they have to redo calcutta. TD elects to bar player Z. Player Z finds out he is barred and immediately calls out the entire pool room, yelling and basically insulting everyone and raising major hell. Player Y takes offense and starts yelling back. Escalates and player Z is now taking off his shirt and advancing to fight and is restrained. Pool room owner kicks player Z out of pool room but its too late, cops have now arrived and they detain player Z and eventually they find pot in his car and he is cited for MM possession and given notice to appear.

oh, the drama!
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
This story made me so sick I almost couldn't stand it.

If that happened to me, I'd NEVER EVER replay that match and while I was busy calling BS to the TD, I'd make an ass out of him for even suggesting such a stupid thing.

Why not just cry at the end of EVERY loss and get mulligans until you're blue in the face?

Sickening.
 
Mickey Qualls

Mickey Qualls

You study the watch......
Silver Member
kvinbrwr said:
Mickey

Either Lyn's or the OP's scenario would leave me feeling pretty raw.

I think as Jay would testify, being a TD is tough, and handicaps just make the job tougher. That being said, one would expect that once a match was in the books, it would be in the books.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Kevin, I agree.

My only point was that in Lyn's scenario, it seems to have been an 'honest mistake' (?) on the TD's part.

But to be asked to play the match after you've 'advanced' to the next round ? I'm there on time, I was at my table when my match was scheduled. And I beat the guy I was playing. Why should I have to 'play it again' because someone else couldn't be there on time ?

The OP's scenario is different, in that the match was PLAYED, and there was a clear winner and loser. But the loser seems to have bruised feelings. Why should I have to 'play it again' because someone else couldn't rise to the occasion ?

I guess I would have hammered those points home, and find out what the alternative was if I chose not to play the late player (or if I were Player B in the OP's scenario).

Mickey <--- Once it's on the books, that's it...
 
D

dundeewizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ironman said:
Wanna play some, we could call it educational??
Click to expand...

Sure. I'll play.
I still don't get it. The last two do you mean after the break? Or is it basically once the player getting the spot pots the 3rd to last ball on the table its game over?
Think I'd rather have that than the 8ball.
 
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Chris Santana
Silver Member
dundeewizard said:
Sure. I'll play.
I still don't get it. The last two do you mean after the break? Or is it basically once the player getting the spot pots the 3rd to last ball on the table its game over?
Think I'd rather have that than the 8ball.
Click to expand...

Last 2 means the last 2 balls on the table. And yes, some people prefer getting the last 2 than the 8. However, technically, the 8 ball is a better handicap because you can make it on the break (which you can't do with the last 2, unless you can make 8 balls on the break), and you can play a combo at any time.
 
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