Derby Observations of a Non-Pro Player

What?

yobagua said:

Its obvious that you have never spent quality time seeing Efren play.

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First off, I promise you I've spent more time watching Efren play than you on accu-stats, TV, and in person.

yobagua said:

Ive seen Efren run 5 or six racks. One time in LA he ran 8 against Alex Pagulayan. How can he run all those racks with a "weak" break? He has a rack that suits his game. He doesnt slam em and jam em with a loud sound ala Shannon or Busta but one that allows him to run out when he pockets a ball.

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Secondly, WOW, you've seen Efren run fives and sixes and you even seen him hit Alex with an eight! Earl won his million by running ten. Him and Archer have run sets out along with other great powerhouse breakers. Do you think they play better or as good as Efren? Ofcourse they don't! He runs balls better than any living human and has for not years, but for decades. If you think his break is good, then you are saying that the other top pros that win tournaments play as well as he does, which they don't.

yobagua said:

All you are doing is parroting what some non entity who wants to point out something negative about a great player. His break is fine.

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Lastly, you are correct. His break is fine and is sufficient for him because he runs out better than anyone, but it's not great. Every other aspect of his game is great other than banks. You'll probably want to argue that he's a great banker too, right? He does bank good, but he doesn't bank great. His kicks, safes, kick safes, shot making, and position play are either even with or above any other player. If you thinks he breaks so good, go back and watch the 2005(maybe 2004) finals of the International Challenge of Champions with him against Bustamante. I believe the final set score was 7-1 Bustamante. Efren never missed a ball. It is an alternating break format and the only game he won was when he made a ball on the break, one time, and ran out. All the other games he broke, didn't make a ball, and Francisco ran out. Every game Bustamante broke, he made a ball and ran out.
Parroting some non entity? I speak my own mind since I have been around the game and great players for about 20 years now. However, what I have said is something many others have said before. You can hear Bill Incardona speak the same comments I have made on some of Efren's Accu-stat matches. I guess Billy don't know what he's talking about, huh? He's only been around the game all his life and seen every great player at one time or another. Do you think he got the commentator role on Accu-stats because he don't know what he's talking about? Efren tried to get Buddy to help him with his break years ago. Ask any of the top players and they will agree with me. Efren knows he has a weak break compared to some of the other great players. It's more of an even playing field though when they are playing on tighter pocket tables since less balls go on the break.
Anyway, like I've stated before, Efren is the greatest player to ever live, atleast in my time. I never got to watch Luther play in his prime, but out of everyone I've ever witnessed, Efren is the best. So, if you think I was talking bad about Efren, there you have it. My only point was if Efren had Bustamante's break, he'd win almost every nineball tournament he played. If his break wasn't a big factor in nineball tournaments, then why does he win just about every one pocket or eightball tournament he plays?

Thank you nine baller for posting a concise and thoughtful response to my post. One thing my tape collection is in the thousands. I have all of Efrens tape from accustats. I have many tapes of Efren from Filipino tv as well as Efren playng in Japan. Blomhdahl playing nine ball with Efren as well as 3 cushion. I also have Efren playing in Europe.
I also have been around since the 60's and seen Luther play as well as Balsis, Crane, etc.
But this is not a contest as to who has seen more Efren than each other. The point is YOU used the word "weakness". Implying that it was Efrens weakness in his game. I beg to disagree. He does runs racks because he has a GOOD break. But because he plays so great in other areas we tend to see his break as "weak". I dont think it is.
I guess I am responding to others who have said willy nilly on this board that so and so could beat Efren because he has a "weak" break. I did not intend to accuse you of not knowing what you are talking about. I agree with you that Efren is great but I dont think that his break is his weakness.

nineballer said:

First off, I promise you I've spent more time watching Efren play than you on accu-stats, TV, and in person.


Secondly, WOW, you've seen Efren run fives and sixes and you even seen him hit Alex with an eight! Earl won his million by running ten. Him and Archer have run sets out along with other great powerhouse breakers. Do you think they play better or as good as Efren? Ofcourse they don't! He runs balls better than any living human and has for not years, but for decades. If you think his break is good, then you are saying that the other top pros that win tournaments play as well as he does, which they don't.


Lastly, you are correct. His break is fine and is sufficient for him because he runs out better than anyone, but it's not great. Every other aspect of his game is great other than banks. You'll probably want to argue that he's a great banker too, right? He does bank good, but he doesn't bank great. His kicks, safes, kick safes, shot making, and position play are either even with or above any other player. If you thinks he breaks so good, go back and watch the 2005(maybe 2004) finals of the International Challenge of Champions with him against Bustamante. I believe the final set score was 7-1 Bustamante. Efren never missed a ball. It is an alternating break format and the only game he won was when he made a ball on the break, one time, and ran out. All the other games he broke, didn't make a ball, and Francisco ran out. Every game Bustamante broke, he made a ball and ran out.
Parroting some non entity? I speak my own mind since I have been around the game and great players for about 20 years now. However, what I have said is something many others have said before. You can hear Bill Incardona speak the same comments I have made on some of Efren's Accu-stat matches. I guess Billy don't know what he's talking about, huh? He's only been around the game all his life and seen every great player at one time or another. Do you think he got the commentator role on Accu-stats because he don't know what he's talking about? Efren tried to get Buddy to help him with his break years ago. Ask any of the top players and they will agree with me. Efren knows he has a weak break compared to some of the other great players. It's more of an even playing field though when they are playing on tighter pocket tables since less balls go on the break.
Anyway, like I've stated before, Efren is the greatest player to ever live, atleast in my time. I never got to watch Luther play in his prime, but out of everyone I've ever witnessed, Efren is the best. So, if you think I was talking bad about Efren, there you have it. My only point was if Efren had Bustamante's break, he'd win almost every nineball tournament he played. If his break wasn't a big factor in nineball tournaments, then why does he win just about every one pocket or eightball tournament he plays?

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Efren's break isn't weak. A while back they clocked his break speed on average 27 mph. You don't see him break hard all the time because often he doesn't need to. If you want to see some powerhouse breaking, watch the last few tapes of The Color of Money match against Earl Strickland. Efren was smashing the rack apart and squatting the cueball. He broke and ran like 25 racks out of about 40 when he caught that gear.

And what exactly did Billy Incardona say about Efren's break? Because I just finished watching a tape where Billy said that Efren having a weak break is a myth, and he in fact is the one that said they clocked him doing 27-28 mph. I also don't know why you say his kicking ability is at par or slightly above other players. That is the aspect of his game that is far and away better than any pool player out there.

That was some nice information Mike. It was a pleasure meeting you as well.

yobagua said:

Thank you nine baller for posting a concise and thoughtful response to my post. One thing my tape collection is in the thousands. I have all of Efrens tape from accustats. I have many tapes of Efren from Filipino tv as well as Efren playng in Japan. Blomhdahl playing nine ball with Efren as well as 3 cushion. I also have Efren playing in Europe.
I also have been around since the 60's and seen Luther play as well as Balsis, Crane, etc.
But this is not a contest as to who has seen more Efren than each other. The point is YOU used the word "weakness". Implying that it was Efrens weakness in his game. I beg to disagree. He does runs racks because he has a GOOD break. But because he plays so great in other areas we tend to see his break as "weak". I dont think it is.
I guess I am responding to others who have said willy nilly on this board that so and so could beat Efren because he has a "weak" break. I did not intend to accuse you of not knowing what you are talking about. I agree with you that Efren is great but I dont think that his break is his weakness.

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It was not my intention to start a who's seen Efren more contest. My collection isn't as big as yours, but I'm sure you don't have many I haven't seen. Yes I did use the word "weakness" and I guess it's because Efren does everything else so well. Don't get me wrong, his break and banks are good, but in comparison to the rest of his game, I feel they are weak. They are the only aspects of his game that anyone can argue the point that their may be someone out there that can do those better than him. I apologize, I should have clarified myself more on the point. When I used the word "weakness", I was using it in the terms of the Efren Scale where everything is perfect. On the scale of all other players, his break is good. As far as someone saying so and so could beat Efren because of his break, so and so might be able to be competitive with Efren in short sets because they might have a better break. In the long run, Efren will get there. We are allowed to disagree, but I still contend that if Efren broke the balls in nineball as well as he does mostly everything else, he would win almost every nineball tournament on the planet. Sorry about my previous post. I just didn't want you thinking I was some idiot spouting off about something I had no clue about or hadn't invested the time in researching the matter(i.e. logged many hours watching Efren play).

cuetechasaurus said:

Efren's break isn't weak. A while back they clocked his break speed on average 27 mph. You don't see him break hard all the time because often he doesn't need to. If you want to see some powerhouse breaking, watch the last few tapes of The Color of Money match against Earl Strickland. Efren was smashing the rack apart and squatting the cueball. He broke and ran like 25 racks out of about 40 when he caught that gear.

And what exactly did Billy Incardona say about Efren's break? Because I just finished watching a tape where Billy said that Efren having a weak break is a myth, and he in fact is the one that said they clocked him doing 27-28 mph. I also don't know why you say his kicking ability is at par or slightly above other players. That is the aspect of his game that is far and away better than any pool player out there.

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I have seen the tapes of the Efren and Earl match and it helps prove my point even further. Efren was way behind until he figured out the break. If you look back at those last sets of racks he ran, he made the one in the side virtually every one of those racks. Every table breaks differently and Efren needed to figure out the break which he will figure out in long sets like this one with Earl. He got in a big deficit during the match because Earl was outbreaking him. Once he figured out the break it was over. I have given people the break that do so terribly. After a few hours of breaking every rack, even terrible breakers start to break like Earl. In short sets, you don't have much time to figure out the break and that's why the power breakers have an small advantage over Efren. Breaking 27-28 mph is good, but controlling a 27-28 mph break is another story. As far as Bill Incardona's comments, I have heard him mention Efren's break lacking in several accu-stat matches. I do have one of those matches in my collection and can go watch it again and quote him if you'd like. Bill may have changed his mind which people are allowed to do, but mine hasn't. You saw what happened to Earl once Efren figured out the break. If he had a great break like Bustamante's, he would win just about every nineball tournament, short sets or not.

If you are going to quote me, quote me correctly. I never said Efren's kicking ability is at par or slightly above other players. I listed a few aspects of his game and stated that they were even or above all other players. I didn't get into each aspect separately. If I did, ofcourse his kicking game would be one of those superior aspects that nobody can do as good as Efren.

Accu-stat's stats

I'm not bashing any part of Efren's game! I'm one of his biggest fans! I am curious, however, if we could get ahold of some accu-stat's stats. Since one of the categories that figures the accu-stats is whether or not a ball was pocketed on the break, I'd like to see how many times he made a ball on the break compared to the number of times he broke. I would then like to compare that stat to many other players given the same number of racks broken. That could shed a little more light on the subject and maybe prove me wrong.