Would consider this cheating by the tournament director?

Shawn Armstrong · Jun 14, 2016

Big Bad Bern said:
Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?
Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament. The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.
So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls. B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.
I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldn’t believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this. To me its flat out cheating, even if he didn’t know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said I’m sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didn’t know that you can’t do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!
I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!
Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldn’t do 1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest. 2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play! 3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.
What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.

Communication 101 lesson:

When P broke down his cue, B should have asked if he was conceding the match. B didn't. He kept shooting. Therefore, the cue being put away is a moot point.

You calling him names and questioning his sportsmanship was out of place. You weren't involved in the match. Therefore, stay out of it, unless one of the parties has asked you to mediate.

Let me draw up a scenario for you. You're at a 4 way stop. You have stopped and are about to drive through the intersection. You see the car to your right isn't stopping, and is travelling at a high rate of speed. By the rules of the road, you're allowed to proceed into the intersection, as the other car is supposed to stop. So, would you drive into the intersection? Sometimes, common sense trumps "the rules". Seems that if B had have engaged some common sense, this scenario wouldn't have happened.

So....P didn't cheat.

Celophanewrap · Jun 14, 2016

supergreenman said:
As far as I know this is only a rule in APA. I took a quick scan of the VNEA tournament rules, both general and 8 ball and neither of them mention breaking your cue down.

Conclusion: while it could be conclude that breaking the cue down was a concession, it's not in the rules and therefore he didn't cheat.

As far as a tournament director playing in the tournament he's running, I've done it. I'll do it again, I will always try find someone impartial to make a call if necessary. Mind you, I've never run a tournament with more than 60 players.

Actually this isn't an APA rule unless it's a local rule in places.
If someone breaks down on me I stop and go over and offer my hand if they shake hands then it's over, if they don't, I don't shoot again until they ask what I'm doing, so I explain. If I have more than a couple of balls I play a safe then the concession is in their hands, they either put the cue back together and play, or quit and tell me so.
So I kinda wonder what the TD was doing playing in his own tournament, and I guess it didn't violate any rules, but it wasn't very ethical

onepocketron · Jun 14, 2016

fastone371 said:
Before player B went to shoot his last ball and 8 ball, while P was breaking down his cue, B should have asked P if he was conceding the game. The time to ask if an opponent is conceding is before you shoot, not after you lose, sorry. If it appears someone is giving me the game I double check before disturbing any balls, if he is in fact conceding I do not then shoot and see if I would have made remaining balls, I get the rack and balls out for next game. I am not condoning what P did in this case, far from it, but you always gotta be sure what your opponent means if you are not clear on something before proceeding, not after.

I agree, but I am also under the impression he is done before move any balls. I would definitely ask him on the spot, if he was quitting. If you start taking your cue down in front of me, I am certainly going to ask if "you give" before I even pass gas.

michael4 · Jun 14, 2016

fastone371 said:
Before player B went to shoot his last ball and 8 ball, while P was breaking down his cue, B should have asked P if he was conceding the game. The time to ask if an opponent is conceding is before you shoot, not after you lose, sorry. If it appears someone is giving me the game I double check before disturbing any balls, if he is in fact conceding I do not then shoot and see if I would have made remaining balls, I get the rack and balls out for next game. I am not condoning what P did in this case, far from it, but you always gotta be sure what your opponent means if you are not clear on something before proceeding, not after.

^^^ best answer............

RobDeBank · Jun 14, 2016

do you guys not understand that even B asks if P if hes conceding he has to break focus and concentration to address someone off the table.. so If P says no I wasn't conceding... Great! thanks for sharking me and making me come over and mess with this instead of winning the game and focusing on balls.

mattkenefick · Jun 14, 2016

RobDeBank said:
do you guys not understand that even B asks if P if hes conceding he has to break focus and concentration to address someone off the table.. so If P says no I wasn't conceding... Great! thanks for sharking me and making me come over and mess with this instead of winning the game and focusing on balls.

Then don't bother, ignore the person and continue on sinking the balls. That's the sure way to know that you've won.

RobDeBank · Jun 14, 2016

mattkenefick said:
Then don't bother, ignore the person and continue on sinking the balls. That's the sure way to know that you've won.

right but everyone on here loves to act like they are shark proof 100% and every time this kind of stuff comes up people act like their logic overcomes all human emotions. ya in a perfect world nothing should shark you etc etc but like people shouldn't be trying to pull these kinds of moves on you and this one is so blatant and everyoneeeee knows you just plain don't unscrew your cue in a match like that. so it doesn't matter what the logical choice is... people can get rattled and shouldn't have to deal with this stuff. period.

that's what it comes down too.... it was just plain wrong to do.

rjb1168 · Jun 14, 2016

fastone371 said:
Before player B went to shoot his last ball and 8 ball, while P was breaking down his cue, B should have asked P if he was conceding the game. The time to ask if an opponent is conceding is before you shoot, not after you lose, sorry. If it appears someone is giving me the game I double check before disturbing any balls, if he is in fact conceding I do not then shoot and see if I would have made remaining balls, I get the rack and balls out for next game. I am not condoning what P did in this case, far from it, but you always gotta be sure what your opponent means if you are not clear on something before proceeding, not after.

***** Yup, agree. *****

tonythetiger583 · Jun 14, 2016

GideonF said:
For those who were getting a headache trying to read the OP, here it is with a bit of formatting:

---

Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?

Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament.

The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.

So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls.

B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.

I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldn’t believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this.

To me its flat out cheating, even if he didn’t know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said I’m sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didn’t know that you can’t do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!

I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!

Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldn’t do

1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest.

2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play!

3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.

What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.

Wish I had found this before I read the original.

tonythetiger583 · Jun 14, 2016

Big Bad Bern said:
Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?
Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament. The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.
So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls. B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.
I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldn’t believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this. To me its flat out cheating, even if he didn’t know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said I’m sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didn’t know that you can’t do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!
I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!
Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldn’t do 1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest. 2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play! 3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.
What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.

Player B should of asked as soon as P broke down his cue, whether he conceded or not. It's a little shady, cause the person is either legit giving up, or he's pulling a small move.

I think simply asking is a win-win.

Either he's honest, and you don't have to shoot anything, or you get to watch him pull out his cue and screw it back together, and watch you win before unscrewing it again.

tonythetiger583 · Jun 14, 2016

RobDeBank said:
do you guys not understand that even B asks if P if hes conceding he has to break focus and concentration to address someone off the table.. so If P says no I wasn't conceding... Great! thanks for sharking me and making me come over and mess with this instead of winning the game and focusing on balls.

As soon as you see him break his cue, your game will be effected no matter what.

At least asking will clear stuff up.

BmoreMoney · Jun 14, 2016

Yes it clearly seems like cheating to me. While no league expert, it seems to be widely know if you in fact break a cue down ( without getting authorization for a legitimate reason ) it is known to be a concession of the match??? This seems to be understood universally regardless of circumstances . That part seems very clear to me. The part that is not completely clear is the getting mad and shaking part. Sure, I absolutely have gotten mad enough about something and " shook " - no doubt, who hasnt? BUT, IF I got mad enough to " shake " it has always been with me having wrapped my hands around someone's neck " shaking " THEM LOLOL!!! Ive never gotten so mad; much less another league match that I had nothing bet on, to get upset enough to " shake " lol and I can't really understand that aspect of the story but yes - totally cheating as far as I can see. Once again, if someone was " shaking " this guy's head while their hands were wrapped around his neck - yeah I could see that lol!

rrick33 · Jun 15, 2016

If it's not in the rules, it's not cheating; however, breaking your cue down in clear view of your opponent on the last inning, is a psychological move designed to get into your opponents head and potentially break his rhythm.

There are some who might consider it a form of sharking and if it were ruled that way MIGHT be consider against the rules.

On the other hand, getting into your opponents head is an integral component of any competitive sport so the problem lies between the interpretation of sharking as opposed to strategy and where you draw the line on what is acceptable and what is not.

BmoreMoney · Jun 15, 2016

rrick33 said:
If it's not in the rules, it's not cheating; however, breaking your cue down in clear view of your opponent on the last inning, is a psychological move designed to get into your opponents head and potentially break his rhythm.

There are some who might consider it a form of sharking and if it were ruled that way MIGHT be consider against the rules.

On the other hand, getting into your opponents head is an integral component of any competitive sport so the problem lies between the interpretation of sharking as opposed to strategy and where you draw the line on what is acceptable and what is not.

Don't know specifically about the rule book, but I was always under the impression that was universally known as conceding the game ( set , match )

justadub · Jun 15, 2016

fastone371 said:
Before player B went to shoot his last ball and 8 ball, while P was breaking down his cue, B should have asked P if he was conceding the game. The time to ask if an opponent is conceding is before you shoot, not after you lose, sorry. If it appears someone is giving me the game I double check before disturbing any balls, if he is in fact conceding I do not then shoot and see if I would have made remaining balls, I get the rack and balls out for next game. I am not condoning what P did in this case, far from it, but you always gotta be sure what your opponent means if you are not clear on something before proceeding, not after.

This ^^^^^^^^

If you keep shooting, its on you.

rrick33 · Jun 15, 2016

BmoreMoney said:
Don't know specifically about the rule book, but I was always under the impression that was universally known as conceding the game ( set , match )

I have always considered the rule book to be the definitive resource when there are disputes. What you might consider "Universal" may not be viewed the same by others.
Like you, I have always considered it an act of concession but if my opponent disputed my claim I would have to defer to the rules.

My opinion against someone with a contrary option does not afford me the higher ground. The rules always prevail.

If it were truly universal.....it would be a rule and there would be no dispute....in much the same way we recognize that if our opponent scratches, his inning has ended...It's a rule.

Keep in mind, there is no universal rule book regarding pool. Every league has their own rules.

Get_A_Grip · Jun 15, 2016

fastone371 said:
Before player B went to shoot his last ball and 8 ball, while P was breaking down his cue, B should have asked P if he was conceding the game. The time to ask if an opponent is conceding is before you shoot, not after you lose, sorry. If it appears someone is giving me the game I double check before disturbing any balls, if he is in fact conceding I do not then shoot and see if I would have made remaining balls, I get the rack and balls out for next game. I am not condoning what P did in this case, far from it, but you always gotta be sure what your opponent means if you are not clear on something before proceeding, not after.

I agree with this. The player must ask if the opponent is conceding before they shoot. I observed this happen at the WI State 8-ball Tournament. The captain of my team unscrewed his cue and hung onto both halves after he missed and when my captain assumed that his opponent would run out (although he had quite a few balls left).

The opponent noticed this, and basically stopped and insisted that my captain forfeited by unscrewing. They ended up getting a ref and the ref confirmed that it was not a loss. His opponent then finished running the rest of his balls.

(I still don't know why in the world my captain unscrewed his cue. Nobody ever asked him, but this was the furthest he ever got in the tournament in singles, so he may well of been trying to pull a sharking move).

Bob Jewett · Jun 15, 2016

Get_A_Grip said:
... The opponent noticed this, and basically stopped and insisted that my captain forfeited by unscrewing. They ended up getting a ref and the ref confirmed that it was not a loss. ...

I wonder if they were going by a written set of rules or the ref was winging it. Here is the applicable WSR:

1.11 Concession
If a player concedes, he loses the match. For example, if a player unscrews his jointed playing cue stick while the opponent is at the table and during the opponent’s decisive rack of a match, it will be considered a concession of the match.

book collector · Jun 15, 2016

JoeyA said:
Screaming or making obscene gestures at your opponent when they are getting ready to shoot their shot, isn't in those rules either.

JoeyA

This could open a real can of worms, I have met a few players, who, if given half a go ahead, would get behind you on your last shot, and tell you if you make the ball, they will murder your entire family.
Anything to get the win!
Where are all those shark proof guys?
Fade that one, from some broke down meth head .

BmoreMoney · Jun 15, 2016

book collector said:
This could open a real can of worms, I have met a few players, who, if given half a go ahead, would get behind you on your last shot, and tell you if you make the ball, they will murder your entire family.
Anything to get the win!
Where are all those shark proof guys?
Fade that one, from some broke down meth head .

Well # 1 ya shouldn't be playing a meth head , not a good gamble. Second, make sure your piece is out back and not in front when you shoot your shot. Better yet, be known that that would not be any kinda good idear on their part and problem solved.

Would consider this cheating by the tournament director?

Is this Cheating or not

Yes Cheating

No not Cheating

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