stainless steel ? ivory ? or wood-to-wood joint ?

HollyWood

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just a couple more words on the topic

At the allen Hopkins show 2007 I sat with Mr.Danny Janes and his exact words were nobody could feel the difference. Actually his words were put a few bucks on it as well. I'm only telling what I interpeted it to say. The bk was for sale $ and just a photo copy cost 1,000.00 $ Who was kersenbrocks first student? jerry franklin I think you might remember him what reputation for cues does laurie still continue to have. Remember the wood Gon calo Alves, When jerry played thats all he played with. Where as Judd will tell you ebony and stainless, most solid hit, We did talk to bill last wk Stroud about mycue maker friends cue. Bill is working on the 2 shafts.My cue maker friend has been waiting since 95. And mike Gullassy belives Ivory ferrule with morri hard tip for most consistent hit.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
fullsplicefiend said:
opinions, opinions. I have had plenty of steel joints and plenty of flat faced phenolic joints and some of the steel produce a lively hit and some of the flat faced felt dead as a lead weight. I have also noticed the opposite. It's all in the cue itself as a whole.

Try a cue before you buy it. Any joint will play perfectly as long as it is built correctly. World championships have been won with each type of joint.

This post is money in the bank!

Do NOT fall into the 'hype' about why or which joint is better. Take the time to try out different cuemakers' cues and different joint types...even better if you can find a cuemaker you like who can do any of the different joint types. You will save yourself more money in the long run. Some people just happen to prefer different types of joints...one is not necessarily better than another...just different.

I just happen to prefer a big pin wood/wood or phenolic joint because, I feel, that it allows the cue to 'talk' to me clearly. That doesn't mean it may be the right joint type for you...your perception may be completely different than mine. The best joint type for you is the one you play the best with...just that simple...no need to over-think it. ;)

Joints aside....the shaftwood, it's taper, ferrule and tip are all playing a big part in how a cue plays....and, I believe, as does the butt wood used in the cue.

It really is the sum of it's parts that determines how well a cue will play...that, and how well those parts are put together.

Lisa
 
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bruin70

don't wannabe M0DERATOR
Silver Member
fullsplicefiend said:
opinions, opinions. I have had plenty of steel joints and plenty of flat faced phenolic joints and some of the steel produce a lively hit and some of the flat faced felt dead as a lead weight. I have also noticed the opposite. It's all in the cue itself as a whole.

Try a cue before you buy it. Any joint will play perfectly as long as it is built correctly.
World championships have been won with each type of joint.

before this goes any further, i think it best to figure out what we're talking about. this sounds like you're talking about the action on the cb...at least, that's how i interpret "lively hit", and your comparisons of variances of one hit to another. i'm talking about FEELING the impact of tip to cb,,,the actual hit itself. this was HollyWood's statement that i responded to: "Try this: use blue masking tape and cover the joint on ivory cue stainless cue and wood to wood jointed cue. You will not be able to tell difference or will any others. "

i am saying anyone attuned to cues can tell in a blind test, whether the cue has an ss, phenolic, or ivory joint by how he feels the hit at his grip. and i'm not the only one. this issue has been discussed a long long while back. opinions opinions, like you say...but this is not an opinion. i'm not talking about which is better(opinion)..........if someone says he can tell there's salt in a meal, are you going to say "no" simply because you can't? he is stating a fact, not opinion, because he can determine a quantifiable thing. i know a player, one of ginky's former teachers, who played with as close to metal-less cues as possible,,,very light, no weight bolt etc etc. he didn't like the feel of metal and said other than the joint screw he could tell when any metal was in the cue. now,,,was i going to say no way because I couldn't tell the difference?

now, when you say "it's all in the cue itself as a whole", i totally agree that the sum of the parts make the hit. but that has nothing to do with the ability of a person to tell the difference in a cue's joint by how the hit feels in your hand.

THIS statement is really not part of the argument.
___________________________________________________

now, someone has already misinterpreted everything already. OPSP has said "This post is money in the bank! Do NOT fall into the 'hype' about why or which joint is better" in response to you saying championships have been won by different joints. my statement IS NOT about which joint is better. that would be a subjective opinion. my statement was an objective one that could be objectively tested within defined parameters.
 
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rickyaifd

Registered
Does a wood to wood joint refer to a joint pin that screws directly into a wood threaded shaft, or does the shaft at least have thread Guides of metal
 

9 Ball Fan

Darth Maximus
Silver Member
If I was throwing money at a custom cue, it would have a stainless steel joint collar on it.

Looks good, and hits solid.
 

9ball5032

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does a wood to wood joint refer to a joint pin that screws directly into a wood threaded shaft, or does the shaft at least have thread Guides of metal

I would say that an insert would not matter as long as the joint faces had some wood touching each other.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.sport.billiard/SgU43CN6aEc/QlwmU169TToJ Very few players are able to tell what kind of joint is in a cue. The results of this 1991 experiment are telling. If you took 10 cues and taped-over the joints how many could tell what they just hit with? Not many. There a other factors(taper, ferrule, tip) that have a larger affect on how a cue hits.

I think this is somewhat misleading.

I'm not sure everyone could tell which joint is which, but I think some joints, across the board, hit "softer" than other joints.

With that said, I think all of my wood-wood jointed cues hit "softer" than my steel-jointed cues, even with the same tips, ferrules, and shaft tapers.
 

GaryB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Staghorn works for me.
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I like staghorn as well. Oh that's right Joey made my last two.

I also like several of wood to wood joints that I have had had in the past.

Also one of my all time favorites cue I have ever hit with is an old Schon that had a SS. It had sharp points and I talked the guy who owned it, a friend of mine, into selling it to me. However, when I showed up with the cash he backed out. Still somewhat pissed.

Truth be told if the joints were covered up and I were blindfolded I would be hard pressed to identify positively what I was shooting with. 50/50

But I do know what I like when I hit with what I like. A lot of factors involved.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it really the joint that makes the difference? :confused:

Actually, the shaft makes all the difference in the world, when it comes to what action you get. The taper is very important. The pro taper allows more flexibility than the graduated taper or the straight taper.

Then, there's the tip. The softer tip allows more grab for English, but it also mushrooms more easily. The harder tip works best if you don't need English and need a more powerful shot... for instance, on the break.

The ferrule does make a difference, but the shaft taper and the tip are probably the most overlooked items, when it comes to figuring out what hits best. Everyone always assumes it is the joint. :(

For the record, I like my wood-to-wood joint best, with a close run by the phenolic collars. I used to think i needed a stainless steel or brass collar on my cues, but my whole game got better with the others. I also noticed that the shafts with the metal collars were more straight or graduated tapers, not pro tapers. The cues with the joints I seem to like best also have pro tapers on them. I now use the thicker taper cues I have for break cues. I have a WB Water Buffalo tip put on them and away I go! I don't have to put near the effort into my break, but I make at least one ball on most breaks, now. :)

After many, many years of playing with ALL the combinations, I have to agree very, very much with this person's assessment of how and why cues play a certain way. But I might add that, in the end, it is the person behind the cue- the STROKE that that person can bring to the cue that REALLY is the final determining factor- 25% the arrow and 75% the archer. A very good quality maple shaft with a pro taper- same diameter from the tip to the first 14 inches down the shaft, an ivory ferrule, a quality soft layered tip will give you all the cue ball control you need regardless of the joint. Couple that with a quality stroke that takes the tip all the way through the cue ball on delivery and stay down on that shot at least until cue ball contact with the object ball and all you need after that is quality practice and quality competitive experience to play top notch pool
 
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mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it really the joint that makes the difference? :confused:

Actually, the shaft makes all the difference in the world, when it comes to what action you get. The taper is very important. The pro taper allows more flexibility than the graduated taper or the straight taper.

Then, there's the tip. The softer tip allows more grab for English, but it also mushrooms more easily. The harder tip works best if you don't need English and need a more powerful shot... for instance, on the break.

The ferrule does make a difference, but the shaft taper and the tip are probably the most overlooked items, when it comes to figuring out what hits best. Everyone always assumes it is the joint. :(

For the record, I like my wood-to-wood joint best, with a close run by the phenolic collars. I used to think i needed a stainless steel or brass collar on my cues, but my whole game got better with the others. I also noticed that the shafts with the metal collars were more straight or graduated tapers, not pro tapers. The cues with the joints I seem to like best also have pro tapers on them. I now use the thicker taper cues I have for break cues. I have a WB Water Buffalo tip put on them and away I go! I don't have to put near the effort into my break, but I make at least one ball on most breaks, now. :)

After many, many years of playing with ALL the combinations, I have to agree very, very much with this person's assessment of how and why cues play a certain way.
 

Superiorduper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As far as control energy transfer goes, I can’t tell the difference.

SS collars definitely kill the vibration of a cue after impact, which some may perceive as a more “solid” hit. To me it feels muted.

I prefer flat faced, wood to wood collars and a Wrapless butt, because I like to hear the tone of the cue and feel the vibration. “Feedback”

It’s all preference.
 

NathanDetroit

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
No one here mentioned the venerable Schmelke brass joint. I like it as I like a more forward balance.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The best feeling cue I ever tried was an inexpensive cue with a wood to wood joint.
It felt different and better than any cue I had tried up until then and likely still is too.
But its joint didn't feel as tight other cues & purely by accident, I stumbled upon ivory.

My first ivory joint cue was piloted and I owned two JW cues with piloted ivory joints.
Then I acquitred a Paul Mottey piloted ivory joint and it really wowed me even more.

I had the opportunity to get a flat faced ivory joint cue by Tim Scruggs and that cue
changed my opinion on joints & my subsequent cue acquisitions have been flat ivory.

Wood to wood likely feels a little better but I can't bring myself to order or buy another
cue unless the cue's joint was a flat ivory big pin version. Ivory looks the best in any
cue design and it plays wonderfuli and produces a unique, pleasing acoustical sound
when stroking the cue ball. It imparts a softer tactile feel than any steel joint & I'd own
some truly big name cue-makers if CA hadn't enacted its ivory ban on July 1, 2016.

After my buddy gets his new cue due in December that had to be made using Juma,
I'll get to see how it stacks up versus ivory. I've seen positive feedback on the Forum
it's suitable as a substitute for ivory but until I get to try it, ivory iremains my standard.

Matt B.

p.s. And I know the sound produced is attributable to the ferrules which are ivory too.
 

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Knels

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Anyone notice when joints dont line up EXACTLY, they can wreak havoc keeping the cueball on line? Fine touch shots definitely suffer.This is happening to me on my mezz wavy, also happened on my sleeved wood meucci. Dont know if this happens on ss much but i dont find i can feel as much
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does a wood to wood joint refer to a joint pin that screws directly into a wood threaded shaft, or does the shaft at least have thread Guides of metal

How did you dig up a 12 year old thread to ask this? Should have been a ton of cue thread pictures to find.

Wood to wood is pretty much always large pin into a wood hole in the shaft, no metal threads. Never seen anything else called wood to wood joint.

In fact, I can't think of any big pin joint type that had a metal shaft insert 3/8x10 or a radial.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How did you dig up a 12 year old thread to ask this? Should have been a ton of cue thread pictures to find.

Wood to wood is pretty much always large pin into a wood hole in the shaft, no metal threads. Never seen anything else called wood to wood joint.

In fact, I can't think of any big pin joint type that had a metal shaft insert 3/8x10 or a radial.
Seen Radials into a phenolic insert. Stout joints.
 
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