warp or taper roll?

SOULHASSORROW · Jun 27, 2010

i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

manwon · Jun 27, 2010

SOULHASSORROW said:
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

I don't believe in taper rolls, either a shaft is straight or it isn't, in my opinion a taper roll is just another word for a slight roll or lack of straightness of the shaft.

JIMO

12squared · Jun 27, 2010

Some people call a wobble in the middle of the shaft a taper roll if the tip stays on the table, but in reality it's not. A taper role would not wobble if straight - a true taper role would be if the taper created space in certain areas when roled, but without a wobble. The good news is this type of role typically does not affect play, I think this is why people call it a taper role. It is very common.

If you bought the cue new and the role is pronounced, I think the cuemaker should replace them. If it is a slight role, I would let them know of it and see what time does to it. it would be smart to have an agreement w/the cuemaker to replace the shaft(s) if they got worse if not misused or stored.

Just my opinion.

Dave

SOULHASSORROW · Jun 28, 2010

thanks guys, i know wood moves and the enviornment affects the wood's straightness so that could be a factor. i actually sent this same cue to espiritu cause there was a stain on the buttcap and he replaced it for free,all i had to pay was shipping. i hope he feels the same way about the shafts.

Tramp Steamer · Jun 28, 2010

It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment. As to who caused the warp, you'll have to work that out with whomever you got the cue from.

Black-Balled · Jun 28, 2010

Tramp Steamer said:
It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment. As to who caused the warp, you'll have to work that out with whomever you got the cue from.

I am not sure I have ever owned a cue that was perfectly even all along the lenght of the shaft. I agree that as long as the tip isn't lifting when rolled it is game on!

SCCues · Jun 28, 2010

SOULHASSORROW said:
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

To me taper roll is just a nicer way of saying a shaft is warped. If you roll a shaft on a pool table and the middle moves up and down whether the tip leaves the cloth or not it's warped. The only question is how bad is it. I see sellers describe the shaft or shafts on the cue they are selling as having a taper roll. That sounds better than saying one or both are warped......

James

pdcue · Jun 28, 2010

SOULHASSORROW said:
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

P-L-E-A-S-E stop rolling cues on pool tables and thinking it shows
if they are warped.

There are many reasons a cue will appear to wobble when rolled.

Being warped is only one of them.

If you have access to a lathe - put the shaft in the lathe between
centers and spin it. this will tell beyond any doubt.

No lathe - sight down the cue/shaft like a rifle and slowly rotate it.
If you can not detect a warp with this method, it is safe to assume
the cue is straighter than your stroke is.

Dale<who is somewhat warped himself>

ratcues · Jun 28, 2010

Tramp Steamer said:
It's a warp, and warps are inexcusable in todays modern equipment.

The wood doesn't care what kind of equiptment you use.

TATE · Jun 28, 2010

SOULHASSORROW said:
i just had a quick question i have 2 brand new espiritu shafts and when i roll them without the butt, the middle of the shaft lifts up but the tip stays grounded. do cuemakers provide warranties against these imperfections? ive tried contacting espiritu but no answer! the butt is straight alone, but with the shaft put on it has a noticeable roll. is this a taper roll or warpage? thanks in advance.

This is very typical shaft warpage.

If a shaft is prone to warpage, storing a cue in a hot, humid area like a non-air conditioned house during summer, or a garage, or a trunk, will bring out whatever warp is inherent.

I don't know if this is going to be controversial, but I've noticed a lot of cues that come in from the southern states have a problem with shaft warpage. I don't know if it's because of the conditions when they are made or the condition they are stored - but I've had bad experience with cues from hot, humid areas.

If these shafts really are new, I would hope he will replace them.

Chris

Tramp Steamer · Jun 28, 2010

ratcues said:
The wood doesn't care what kind of equiptment you use.

Oh yeah. Why, just the other day my neice Sarasota and I, you remember Sarasota don't you, were walking through the forest communing with nature when all of a sudden one of the trees began to speak. The tree said, "Please. Stop killing us trees just so you can make pianos and pool cues."
Well, Me and Sarasota took off like a rocket and didn't stop running until we had downed our third shot of Quervo at a roadside tavern, three miles away.
Turns out, according to the bartender, a crazy old moonshiner has been living in those woods. Sarasota still thinks it's the trees. :wink:

Ken_4fun · Jun 28, 2010

If you are selling its taper roll, if you are buying its warp.

I crack me up sometimes.

Ken

SOULHASSORROW · Jun 28, 2010

thanks for the input guys. unfortunately i dont have access to a lathe, and the shafts are definitely warped in the middle. i actually won both of these in raffles and i never played with them or put them together. the person who ran the raffle said they were new so i figured they would be straight. again thanks for all the input and funny posts lol!

LAlouie · Jun 29, 2010

There's no guarantees, Bub. Warps happen, unless the conclusion can be drawn that the warp was especially nasty and out of the ordinary. There's no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.

SOULHASSORROW · Jun 29, 2010

LAlouie said:
There's no guarantees, Bub. Warps happen, unless the conclusion can be drawn that the warp was especially nasty and out of the ordinary. There's no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.

you have a good point sir!!! but no the cue was always stored in a case in temps that would not harm it in anyway. the humidity here in the north(montana) is different from the south,where espiritu is located, so that couldve warped the shafts!

manwon · Jun 29, 2010

LAlouie said:
There's no guarantees, Bub. Warps happen, unless the conclusion can be drawn that the warp was especially nasty and out of the ordinary. There's no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.

If I were a cuemaker, of course I would inspect everything to make make sure the cue passes the grade before it leaves the shop. Having done that, what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.[/QUOTE]

If it was a perfect world that was climate controlled and all cue makers only used the best woods that were well seasoned and slowly turned over at least 20 years, I would agree with you. However, that is not always the case and this is not a perfect world that is perfectly climate controlled.

Now my comments are not directed at the Cue Maker who built the shafts in question, he is well respected in the industry, but not all people building cues live up to the standards that you describe above and if they followed your idea they would not be in business very long. This is because wood moves and sometimes no matter how well you preform your craft things will happen over time and if you follow the principle that as a business person your right and the customer is wrong you will not have customers very long.

JIMO

LAlouie · Jun 29, 2010

manwon said:
If it was a perfect world that was climate controlled and all cue makers only used the best woods that were well seasoned and slowly turned over at least 20 years, I would agree with you. However, that is not always the case and this is not a perfect world that is perfectly climate controlled.

Now my comments are not directed at the Cue Maker who built the shafts in question, he is well respected in the industry, but not all people building cues live up to the standards that you describe above and if they followed your idea they would not be in business very long. This is because wood moves and sometimes no matter how well you preform your craft things will happen over time and if you follow the principle that as a business person your right and the customer is wrong you will not have customers very long.

JIMO

Then it's a good thing I'm not a cuemaker. :wink: However all those things you mentioned are beyond the cuemaker's control. A cuemaker gets his reputation by putting out a good cue. He doesn't get a good rep if all his cues warped. Thus, if I am good cuemaker with a good rep, then bad warpping is an anomaly. I don't have to go out of my way to make good on it when I don't even know who's fault it is. For all I know, it might be this guy http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-...You-Ever-Leave-a-Pool-Cue-in-a-Car-in-Arizona . My reputation and business remains healthy and intact.

Put it another way. If I am Toyota and everyone loves my auto, I'm not going out of my way to fix an aberrant lemon just for one customer. Sh#t happens. But I would recall if a million autos had a problem.

Black-Balled · Jun 29, 2010

LAlouie said:
There's no guarantees, Bub. ...no way the cuemaker can tell whether or not you left your cue in your car in Phoenix, or used it to clean your drain. ...what happens outside the shop is not my responsibility.

ESPECIALLY if the cue was bought off fleabay.

I'd say it is generally worth the extra few $ to buy from the maker.

Tramp Steamer · Jun 29, 2010

I pretty much agree with louie on this point. If a warp occurs in a reputable cuemakers shaft, especially if it is new, the problem is quickly and quietly taken care of and life goes on.

greyghost · Jun 29, 2010

ratcues said:
The wood doesn't care what kind of equiptment you use.

I was thinking the same thing....you could have the best equipment known to the human race and its not going to make one bit of diference if your wood has issues.....

warp or taper roll?

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