9 ball / 10 ball middle ground

nataddrho said:

I like nine-ball and I like the idea behind it, but fundamentally it bothers me a bit. Ten-ball solves the technical tolerance but it lacks the fluency and the often-times appreciated silent communication of nine-ball, as well as deliberate two-way shots and safeties.

What do you think of a middle ground being: regular nine-ball and "spot what goes in early"... for any ball including the 9.

The idea being you get the two-ways and you keep your turn, but you need to adapt your plan for the spotted balls. If your opponent unintentionally locks you up, you still need the kicking skills to get out it and reverse the safety just like in nine-ball. Nobody needs to say words out-loud to call balls. If opponent flukes a ball, they must prove that they can still run-out when the ball comes back on the table, which may be a little bit more fair.

The only downside I see is the accumulation of a string of spotted balls on the head string, but may expose the skill requirement for precision long-distance safety play.

Thanks for reading my public brainstorm dump. Cheers

Nate

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I always disliked calling shots in anything but straight pool. In the Phillipines they play 10 ball without call shot rules, and it's a much better game. 8 ball doesn't need call shot either. It's a stupid thing to call out what you're going to do in a pool game. Straight pool is the one exception, because removing it would break the game.

The fundamental flaw with nine ball isn't fluking balls, but the break being wired. The people whining about fluked balls are crybabies that are going to whine no matter what. One should never cater to that crowd. They are the same people who do not understand two way shots and want them completely removed with "call safe" rules, which is the worst thing ever invented by anyone ever, which as you can imagine, is up against pretty stiff competition.

9 ball has been played with bih behind the line, spotted balls etc. I've seen some tournaments on youtube (old). It looked like it sucked, sorry to say. So your opponent fouls, there is allready spotted balls there, and the ball he potted and scratched on gets spotted behind these...With ball in hand behind the line, you don't have much of an advantage...That is just ONE problem, there are others too. Play 10 ball (Pinoy style) or straight rotation which is a much better game.

Straightpool_99 said:

I always disliked calling shots in anything but straight pool. In the Phillipines they play 10 ball without call shot rules, and it's a much better game. 8 ball doesn't need call shot either. It's a stupid thing to call out what you're going to do in a pool game. Straight pool is the one exception, because removing it would break the game.

The fundamental flaw with nine ball isn't fluking balls, but the break being wired. The people whining about fluked balls are crybabies that are going to whine no matter what. One should never cater to that crowd. They are the same people who do not understand two way shots and want them completely removed with "call safe" rules, which is the worst thing ever invented by anyone ever, which as you can imagine, is up against pretty stiff competition.

9 ball has been played with bih behind the line, spotted balls etc. I've seen some tournaments on youtube (old). It looked like it sucked, sorry to say. So your opponent fouls, there is allready spotted balls there, and the ball he potted and scratched on gets spotted behind these...With ball in hand behind the line, you don't have much of an advantage...That is just ONE problem, there are others too. Play 10 ball (Pinoy style) or straight rotation which is a much better game.

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I agree.

The call every little rail, kiss etc...etc thing reminds me of the drunk in a bar asking me if I meant for the 8 ball to touch the rail about 1/4" up rail before going in pocket.

Anytime someone says call this or call that, I know at that point two things are about to happen:

1. They are about to be disappointed.
2. They are about to be disappointed.

nataddrho said:

Ten-ball solves the technical tolerance but it lacks the fluency and the often-times appreciated silent communication of nine-ball

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Huh?

as well as deliberate two-way shots and safeties.

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I believe these are still possible in 10 Ball.

pj
chgo

I want all this, plus alternate breaks. I get the wild 7 and 8 and I get 7-5 on the wire. My opponent must shoot every money ball with a jump cue. No talking while I'm at the table. Nobody touches my Kamui chalk.

Straightpool_99 said:

The fundamental flaw with nine ball isn't fluking balls, but the break being wired. The people whining about fluked balls are crybabies that are going to whine no matter what. One should never cater to that crowd. They are the same people who do not understand two way shots and want them completely removed with "call safe" rules, which is the worst thing ever invented by anyone ever, which as you can imagine, is up against pretty stiff competition.

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Well said. Texas Express 10-ball Pinoy style is fine, but if 10-ball means calling shots, you can have it. Call safe, as you say, is the worst thing ever invented, and robs the game of much of its majesty.

I think nine ball with the nine racked on the spot is also enough to make sure that balls on the break have to be earned and that multi-purpose shots remain part of the game.

Although it's a little tougher to make a ball on the break at ten ball, the truth is that in many other ways, the ten ball break is more predictable than the nine ball break. The path of the front ball is predictable, the two balls under the one track toward the two side pockets, and the corner balls track onto a four rail path into the bottom corner pockets. This, unfortunately, means that the pattern rackers will ensure that the configuration of the balls after the break will vary much less than in nine ball. Less variability in the runouts is the result, which is not as interesting to watch.

Played the way it's played today, ten ball hasn't solved anything. As a fan, I'd much rather watch nine ball, and with either nine on the spot, neutral racker, or both, the breaking issues go away.

In short, if the middle ground is Texas Express 10-ball, I can live with it, but I'd still prefer nine ball with nine on the spot, neutral racker or both.

nataddrho said:

I like nine-ball and I like the idea behind it, but fundamentally it bothers me a bit. Ten-ball solves the technical tolerance but it lacks the fluency and the often-times appreciated silent communication of nine-ball, as well as deliberate two-way shots and safeties.

What do you think of a middle ground being: regular nine-ball and "spot what goes in early"... for any ball including the 9.

The idea being you get the two-ways and you keep your turn, but you need to adapt your plan for the spotted balls. If your opponent unintentionally locks you up, you still need the kicking skills to get out it and reverse the safety just like in nine-ball. Nobody needs to say words out-loud to call balls. If opponent flukes a ball, they must prove that they can still run-out when the ball comes back on the table, which may be a little bit more fair.

The only downside I see is the accumulation of a string of spotted balls on the head string, but may expose the skill requirement for precision long-distance safety play.

Thanks for reading my public brainstorm dump. Cheers

Nate

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In WPA 10b rules you can play a 2way shot. There is no called-safety in the WPA format.

garczar said:

In WPA 10b rules you can play a 2way shot. There is no called-safety in the WPA format.

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Are two-way shots prevented under some rules? How?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

Are two-way shots prevented under some rules? How?

pj
chgo

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On the Predator 10ball(NYC area) Tour they played call-shot/call-safe. So if you call a shot, miss and hook your opp. they can make you shoot again. To play safe you have to announce it before you shoot. Kills the 2way and i for one hate this format. Read rule #7: http://predatorproamtour.com/rules.asp

garczar said:

On the Predator 10ball(NYC area) Tour they played call-shot/call-safe. So if you call a shot, miss and hook your opp. they can make you shoot again. To play safe you have to announce it before you shoot. Kills the 2way and i for one hate this format. Read rule #7: http://predatorproamtour.com/rules.asp

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So every miss is a pushout?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

So every miss is a pushout?

pj
chgo

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I guess if that's how you gotta see it. Incoming player can pass back on all misses unless safety is called. If a ball is made on a safety attempt you can pass that back also. Tony's tour has been around a while and this works for them. I for one am not a fan of CS/CS.

Patrick Johnson said:

So every miss is a pushout?

pj
chgo

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In call shot, call safe, every missed ball is nothing more than a push.

I for one hate playing that way after HAVING to do it in a few tournaments.

I think 10 ball should be played EXACTLY like 9 ball.

The biggest reason 9 ball is so easy for the pros is because of the way 9 ball breaks. The 10 ball break and run % is much, much lower than 9 ball even without the call shot/safe rule.

Bottom line to me:

Call shot / safe is for the NITS.

Rake

nataddrho said:

Then 9-ball for points, one point per ball, or American rotation. Not much else you can do to fix it.

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I don't like the point system in 9 ball but I do like American rotation.

10 ball with no calling anything is best option.

jrctherake said:

In call shot, call safe, every missed ball is nothing more than a push.

I for one hate playing that way after HAVING to do it in a few tournaments.

I think 10 ball should be played EXACTLY like 9 ball.

The biggest reason 9 ball is so easy for the pros is because of the way 9 ball breaks. The 10 ball break and run % is much, much lower than 9 ball even without the call shot/safe rule.

Bottom line to me:

Call shot / safe is for the NITS.

Rake

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Yep. Regular call-shot 10b is fine. Where i play we make one change to WPA rules and that is you can carom/combo(called of course) the 10b for a win. Still doesn't count on the snap but it doesn't have to go last as in WPA 10b. Makes for a little more exciting game.

garczar said:

I guess if that's how you gotta see it.

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Just checking to see if I understood.

Incoming player can pass back on all misses unless safety is called. If a ball is made on a safety attempt you can pass that back also. Tony's tour has been around a while and this works for them. I for one am not a fan of CS/CS.

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I don't think I am either. Seems like a solution in search of a problem.

pj
chgo

garczar said:

Yep. Regular call-shot 10b is fine. Where i play we make one change to WPA rules and that is you can carom/combo(called of course) the 10b for a win. Still doesn't count on the snap but it doesn't have to go last as in WPA 10b. Makes for a little more exciting game.

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Myself and few others play the same way here. I'm not so sure the 10 shouldn't be allowed on break. We very seldom see the pros making the 10 on break.

To many people carry 9 ball experiences into their 10 ball game. The two are really nothing alike. Amazing how the 1 extra ball changes the entire game from the break till the 10 drops.

Even if they didn't play call shot it wouldn't change anything at pro levels IMO..

I'm all for doing away with calling anything in 10 ball. I would rather save called shots for str8 pool and American rotation.

If people want to really see a good game they should bring POKER POOL back. That's a game that teaches the "two way shot".

Dang, nobody remembers 2-Shot Foul 9-ball??

It was the standard until the introduction of "Texas Express".

It was a better game, IMHO.

Over time, especially during the '90s, One-Shot Foul became more popular, as it speeds up the game. That was the ONLY reason it replaced 2-Shot Foul.

Re-introduce 2-shot foul and no jump cues (jump with full-length cue only) and 9-ball becomes much more than a quick run-out game.

-von

VonRhett said:

Dang, nobody remembers 2-Shot Foul 9-ball??

It was the standard until the introduction of "Texas Express".

It was a better game, IMHO.

Over time, especially during the '90s, One-Shot Foul became more popular, as it speeds up the game. That was the ONLY reason it replaced 2-Shot Foul.

Re-introduce 2-shot foul and no jump cues (jump with full-length cue only) and 9-ball becomes much more than a quick run-out game.

-von

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I remember it because I played it, but I far more enjoy Texas Express, which, despite being slightly less of a shotmaker's game, requires a wider range of skills. Were the game to ever return to its old "shootout" form, I'd stop attending tournaments.

No jump cues ---- you can sign me up for that!

If we're talking about compromise rules I really like 10 ball with 9 ball rules like they play in the Bigfoot Challenge at the Derby. This was the way 10 ball was played back in the Camel Tour days before the WPA decided they needed to make it a call shot game to differentiate it from 9 ball. In my opinion the extra ball is difference enough.