Nick Varner is a Fargorate 777

BasementDweller said:

Stop right there iutbr before you cause anymore FargoRate trouble.

Several years back (around 5) I watched Varner play quite a bit on the bar table and his game was just about perfectly suited for the BB with his tight position, banking, and crafty shooting -- like playing rail first shots. I wouldn't doubt he could play close to that speed on a bar table just a few years back but there's NO WAY he could play anywhere near that speed on a 9 footer then and definitely not now.

I know.. I know... all games and all tables are the same they say.

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Despite the claims that FargoRate is equal on the barbox and big box I think there are situations where that just isn't so. This is one of them.

I think Nick on the bar table is an absolute beast. I watched him in that stream and he played flawlessly.

Would I back him against Oscar (similar fargo) on bar table or any table? No.

But if he just showed up at an open bar table 8-ball event like the Texas State or Wyoming Open I wouldn't expect him to do much better or worse than Oscar with roughly the same chance to win. Although I would give the edge to Oscar due to age and stamina. He has the pocketing skills to make everything and the knowledge and craftiness to out move everyone too.

BAR TABLE ONLY.

Big table and he drops way, way down the list IMO because I think that the bigger tables combined with tighter pockets would not play to his strengths. The younger playerss have superior pocketing skills and I just don't think he could keep up with them on 9' tables.

The thing to remember is that Fargo Rate is only a measure of how likely a player is to beat another play in one game/match. Not how likely they would be to win a tournament - although you can get there using statistics.

It specifically doesn't mean that a player with a given FR should make balls at a certain level or be able to play safe at a certain level. It measures how good they are at winning.

You can have a 700 player that can't make balls but somehow gets the job done and a 700 player that makes everything they shoot at but never plays safe so loses games that way. Even though they have different strengths they can have the same rating.

A player like Varner does so many things so well that even if he has slowed down in some ways he can still win his share of games.

And he IS Nick Varner which will tend to pucker anybody's behind when they find out they have to play him so he could win more matches just because of that intangible.

pt109 said:

Pretty sure that if FargoRate had existed for all of Nicky’s career, he would’ve been in the 800s for three decades.
He won his last world 9-ball title while he was playing on the Mizerak Senior Tour.
...just saw him last week in Norfolk....he looks fit for 71 years old....
...he’d be missing his break speed....but tough at one-hole.

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Right on PT. I see Nick once a year in Chicago, and he still shoots sporty. I don't know if it's 777 or not but damn, I never see him miss He's still pretty active, and in good shape, I think the worse thing that he told me were his eyes just are not what they were in the good old days. Well, completely understandable at 71. But, if he moves to a bar box 8 ball tourney, look out

He still shoots in the Durbin Cup every year in Southern Illinois, and I know he hates to lose at anything, so I'm sure he gets in "game shape" before that one, lots of pride on the line for that

iusedtoberich said:

I'd figure from the modern era Varner, Sigel, Hall, and Strickland would have all been in the 800-825 range. Edit, Archer too. I don't think any other USA player would have been over 800. Thoughts?

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Rempe...........

iusedtoberich said:

If so, that would be awesome. Does anyone know his age?

One other thing of note for the high FargoRate, is Varner is not listed on the top 100 US players, even though his rating would put him at #7 in the US. This means he did not play the minimum number of games in the past year or two to be on that list. I believe Mike has said it was 150 games over the past 2 years, but that number is from memory.

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Nick is 70....

Island Drive said:

Nick is 70....

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May 15, 1948....71 years old
...and I just asked him last week

iusedtoberich said:

You think so? My buddies from Philly from his age group, said he was only a tourney player, and players like Jimmy Fusco would have beaten him for the cash.

Oh, I guess Hopkins would have been an 800 level or above also.

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Maybe if the game was One Pocket. No way Jimmy Fusco was ever in Jim Rempe's zip code at rotation games, or straight pool. And he gambled plenty. I think I'd trust Jay Helfert's assessment of this over some random dude from Jimmy Fusco's back yard. Let's ask him.

iusedtoberich said:

I'd figure from the modern era Varner, Sigel, Hall, and Strickland would have all been in the 800-825 range. Edit, Archer too. I don't think any other USA player would have been over 800. Thoughts?

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The numbers are all relative and don’t carry any inherent meaning, so I don’t think you can say what a player from a different era would have been. They’re not as good as the best players of today, IMO (which is true in probably all sports and games like this), but their ratings could have been higher or lower if calculated at the time, as far as I understand it.

By the way, as long as match scores are recorded - and obviously many are - it would be possible to figure out the Fargo ratings of players from back then, relative to each other. I wonder if Mike Page has ever tried something like that. I bet you could find a couple dozen tournaments with match scores from, say, the 1980s, and have enough to get good ratings on all the top players.

ShortBusRuss said:

Maybe if the game was One Pocket. No way Jimmy Fusco was ever in Jim Rempe's zip code at rotation games, or straight pool. And he gambled plenty. I think I'd trust Jay Helfert's assessment of this over some random dude from Jimmy Fusco's back yard. Let's ask him.

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I completely agree, Fusco was an amazing player in his area and would give about anyone all they wanted but Rempe was a killer at a different level. I was at the Denver tourney and Nick should have won that event, in the matches before he lost Nick played near perfect. That's where I first met you...you told me you were a C player! Then offered me a game.

Yes, Nick is 71 years - young.

And he went to Evansville about 3-4 months ago and won an 8-Ball tournament over there. There are a lot of good players over in the Evansville area. Just ask Skyler Woodward.

r/DCP

Cuebuddy said:

I completely agree, Fusco was an amazing player in his area and would give about anyone all they wanted but Rempe was a killer at a different level. I was at the Denver tourney and Nick should have won that event, in the matches before he lost Nick played near perfect. That's where I first met you...you told me you were a C player! Then offered me a game.

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Lol, sorry, I don't remember.. :wink: I always play up that "C player" thing as more of a joke, than anything else, because that came from Smorgass Bored, and I think it's funny. Realistically, I can give a B player weight, even when not really in stroke. But I don't gamble much, because I simply don't get the chance to PLAY much.

It is a bit frustrating, though. I don't REALLY know what my Fargorate is "supposed" to be... I know that at least half of the pros I have played got woken up during the match by me being ahead at the business end of the match, forcing them to play hard... But military contracting/weight has kept me from ever reaching my potential. All I know is 580 Fargorate players don't put pressure on top pros. Period.

I decided to skip Derby this year to specifically work on my weight, to get to a point by next fall where I can 100% focus on getting my stroke perfected, and practicing the bread and butter shots/break, etc. Had Scott Frost down 5-0, 6-0 first two games of our DCC One Pocket match this year, before I found a way to lose with bad strokes. I am getting REAL tired of "almosts" against these world class players.

iusedtoberich said:

From our couple of short sets, I'd put you at a B+, or about 600 speed.

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I've struggled the last few years at Derby, due to lack of committed playing time. I would agree with your assessment. The year I put in serious practice and put heat on Morra and Joey Gray, I was playing better, albeit inconsistently. In recent times, I have shortened my stroke for repeatability, and been working more at being able to put a better stroke on the ball at distance, and not just punch the ball around the table (which leads to a too-forceful stroke, and lack of speed control).

My patterns when I practice these days are much more free-flowing, as I am decelerating less through the cue ball. I had something in the back of my mind for years that told me I needed to hit the ball "slower" to control my cue ball, and "hold" certain angles. I have been watching a lot of Filler/SVB lately, and my brain is starting to assimilate a different way of hitting the ball.

If I can lose some weight, I do feel I may be on the cusp of a real change in my game. I know I am perfectly capable of dominating a 650+ player when putting in the time, and I've proven it to myself against some of the best players in my pool club here in Germany. I just need to be more committed to ironing out the kinks.

iusedtoberich said:

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How is Varner a 777 with a robustness of 706? Except for a few seniors one pocket events in the past 10 years, I don't recall him playing in anything. Where and when did he get the 706 games since FargoRate went live? And how in the world did he play at a 777 level? I'm scratching my head here.

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Nick's rating is mostly from old games, though not as old as you suggest. He played US Open 2010 and US Open 2011. So he was playing a fair amount through 8 years ago. Between then and now he's logged another 195 games here and there with 80 of them in the last year and a half--couple tournaments in Indiana. Those 195 games are at 769 speed.

In 2014, playing the Nick Varner Classic, he played Joey Gray, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, and Chip Compton with a combined score of 33 to 31.

Is he a 777? Probably not. That number is pretty brittle and relies on a bunch of old data. But there's good evidence he plays pretty sporty...

deanoc said:

does nick have a 777 or not

is the fargo thing for 9 ball,one pocket,or what
i am unfamiliar with the whole thing

josh roberts is rated higher than tony chohan

as is jj

yet i thought tony beat them both

i honetly don't know how it works

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If you still don’t know much about Fargo ratings - Go to FargoRate.com. There is plenty of information there to get educated.

mikepage said:

Nick's rating is mostly from old games, though not as old as you suggest. He played US Open 2010 and US Open 2011. So he was playing a fair amount through 8 years ago. Between then and now he's logged another 195 games here and there with 80 of them in the last year and a half--couple tournaments in Indiana. Those 195 games are at 769 speed.

In 2014, playing the Nick Varner Classic, he played Joey Gray, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, and Chip Compton with a combined score of 33 to 31.

Is he a 777? Probably not. That number is pretty brittle and relies on a bunch of old data. But there's good evidence he plays pretty sporty...

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Mike,

I really wish that Fargorate was patterned more off the way that the U.S. Chess Federation handles it's ratings... Any individual player can buy their own membership, and any games they play in a rated event are rated. No need to get an entire league to sign on.. Players can hold their own 8-man tournaments without a league license, etc....

I understand your goal is to get large groups of people paying into the system at once, so you can make a profit, so you are going after the leagues, but it leaves international players who play at more of a regional level, and already have well-developed league systems in place, out in the cold.

We need some kind of option for an individual to register as a tournament director, and be able to hold any size tournament they wish (including two-man), and report to Fargorate. I just don't see that option when I look at the LMS site, and I feel it's purpose is to try to get area leagues to adopt en masse. That simply will...not...happen... in Europe, because their league systems, websites, and reporting, are already FAR better than anything the U.S. has in any of it's major leagues...

Am I missing this option somewhere? The more tournaments that are held at a local level here in Europe, that we can get Fargo-rated, the more European mid-level players will have a FargoRate.. And the more that have a FargoRate, the more likely it is that the larger area Liga systems will mandate Fargorating across the board, and start charging the yearly fee.

Of course, to get off the ground, every local Fargorated tourney would require the yearly Fargorate fee from each participating player. Is there some option for this?

Also, in the USCF system, I can look up any player in the system, and look at every single game/match they've played, since they were a USCF member. This allows me to see if they've made a recent improvement to their game, I can predict what my rating change will be if I will/lose/draw to them, etc. The system is extremely addictive, and pushes people to improve.

mikepage said:

Nick's rating is mostly from old games, though not as old as you suggest. He played US Open 2010 and US Open 2011. So he was playing a fair amount through 8 years ago. Between then and now he's logged another 195 games here and there with 80 of them in the last year and a half--couple tournaments in Indiana. Those 195 games are at 769 speed.

In 2014, playing the Nick Varner Classic, he played Joey Gray, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, and Chip Compton with a combined score of 33 to 31.

Is he a 777? Probably not. That number is pretty brittle and relies on a bunch of old data. But there's good evidence he plays pretty sporty...

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8 years is a long time.

I know you've said that games in the past aren't given as much weight as current games..

If a win today has a value of 1. How far back do you have to go before that value decreases, and is there a hard stop? For example, if the answer to the first part of the question is 2 years, and the value of a win decreases to 0.8. Would it always be 0.8, or it would decrease again after another 2 years?

Do you know what Nick's speed would be if you only looked at the last 3 years?

Your right!

ShortBusRuss said:

Maybe if the game was One Pocket. No way Jimmy Fusco was ever in Jim Rempe's zip code at rotation games, or straight pool. And he gambled plenty. I think I'd trust Jay Helfert's assessment of this over some random dude from Jimmy Fusco's back yard. Let's ask him.

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Fusco would never play Rempe even in any rotation game for cash, never!