Are butts constructed using a-joints more prone to warping?

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Simple question, are butts that are made with a-joints more prone to warping than a full splice cue,(or other techniques)?

I figure the answer is no, since it is such a prevalent technique used by so many cue makers.
I'll post my reason for asking after getting some feedback, thanks in advance.
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
If done correctly no more of a chance than any other technique.
If not done correctly.......maybe.
Over tightening the threads is one of the biggest culprits for movement down the road.....
Improper technique of construction which may induce internal stress is second biggest.....
And third but not least, nor last.....use of wood too early in the game.....
 

Mcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The answer is no but any method done correctly would not be more prone than any other.

Mario
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the responses as always.
Big thanks to Barenbrugge for the detailed explanation, appreciate you guys.
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes if done the way alot of people install them they warp. The A joint needs to be installed with the joint pin as straight as possible. If not straight there is side pressure created when the faces come together. Eventually it pushes the forearm over and causes the warp.
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
Yes if done the way alot of people install them they warp. The A joint needs to be installed with the joint pin as straight as possible. If not straight there is side pressure created when the faces come together. Eventually it pushes the forearm over and causes the warp.

No doubt, one major part of the equation.
AS important is the mating of the two short pieces and making sure you are NOT cutting any wobble after the glue has dried. If you are, you will be almost guaranteed down the road movement at the joint of the 2 parts mated.
This is one of those much overlooked construction techniques I previously mentioned that is easily hid in the build and doesn't show up until time down the road after the build is completed.
Then of course, it is blamed on the handling and storage of the cue after the fact. :cool:
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know there are a number of different ways to build an A joint.
Is there one that is the best?
Or does each cue maker have a favorite way that they consider the best?
My uneducated guess would be a full splice.
But a full splice is labor intensive and beyond the capabilities of some.
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The reason I posted this. I got about 25-30 older junk cues, all fairly cheap, some rather old, some new, I have only kept them to mess around with (sanding finish off, applying solarez, removing joint pins, etc.)

I put these all in a non-climate controlled storage(basically the equivalent of leaving them in the trunk of a car) about a year ago. I made some modifications to a little homemade lathe I had built and went down and picked them up last week. All the cues with a-joints had warped significantly, solid wood and fullsplice, hardly any movement at all.

Of course, this isn't definitive in any way or a knock on a-joints, and given the storage, the cheap quality cues, I doubt any correlation could be made, just thought it was interesting.

As always appreciate you guys taking time to answer questions here.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From a wood technology standpoint, if you abuse the assembly through heat & MC stress cycle, it is easy to make the argument that an A joint, esp, with a steel pin in it, would more likely warp (& probably loosen) than FS.

Steel, esp stainless steel, shrinks and expands both length x width with changes in temp.
Wood shrinks/expands in thickness with changes in MC. Funny thing about wood, it shrinks/expands more parallel to grain lines, than 90deg to it. No 2 pieces shrink/expand alike at the same area, esp if the grain is not aligned.

So, cycle temp and MC somewhat dramatically, and the joint will fight itself, all day every day. Just setting there. I see this in restoration woodwork. All kinds of end grain wood joints that were never stressed except by temp and MC, and eventually fail over time. It is not the glue "deteriorating" so much as the joint working thousands of cycles, even millions, pulling, pushing, pulling.......

Wood takes a compression set, more or less according to local density. It is forced to compress, but never springs back the whole way. In fact, if caused by moisture, will shrink from where it started. So an assembled butt joint (A joint/steel pin) is not unlikely to compression set areas of the joint differentially, leading to a warp.

There's no particular guarantee about single pc or FS. Those will probably be dead straight at same conditions made, may (or may not) have minor (or more) warp at other times of year.
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
The reason I posted this. I got about 25-30 older junk cues, all fairly cheap, some rather old, some new, I have only kept them to mess around with (sanding finish off, applying solarez, removing joint pins, etc.)

I put these all in a non-climate controlled storage(basically the equivalent of leaving them in the trunk of a car) about a year ago. I made some modifications to a little homemade lathe I had built and went down and picked them up last week. All the cues with a-joints had warped significantly, solid wood and fullsplice, hardly any movement at all.

Of course, this isn't definitive in any way or a knock on a-joints, and given the storage, the cheap quality cues, I doubt any correlation could be made, just thought it was interesting.

As always appreciate you guys taking time to answer questions here.
The problem with old cheap production cues is they were assembled when they were huge rods instead of seasoned tapered forearms and handles.
Then they turn them fast.
The handles are specially large when they assemble them.
Over time, they bow.
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, is it safe to say if you are getting a cue that you aren't going to take care of(leave in the back of your trunk), are getting a cheaper production cue, or getting a cue from someone new to cue making(who might not know all the subtleties of a-joint construction), full splice might be a safer option?
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
So, is it safe to say if you are getting a cue that you aren't going to take care of(leave in the back of your trunk), are getting a cheaper production cue, or getting a cue from someone new to cue making(who might not know all the subtleties of a-joint construction), full splice might be a safer option?

Full splice are made with huge squares then spliced.
Those old house cues are done that way.
I've chopped and converted quite a few of them.
They take years, if not more than a decade to stabilize.
The most stable cues are cored ones IMHO.
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Full splice are made with huge squares then spliced.
Those old house cues are done that way.
I've chopped and converted quite a few of them.
They take years, if not more than a decade to stabilize.
The most stable cues are cored ones IMHO.

You have likely answered more questions for me than anyone on AZ, even my really stupid questions, thanks Joey for your input and time.
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A good A-joint construction demands more of the cuemaker in terms of seasoned wood, tight tolerances and as close to zero runout as possible.
If the connection is wood, phenolic or metal I think is lesss important assuming it`s done right.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Then they turn them fast.

Not only that, but most production house cues were (maybe still are?) made on back knife lathes. These pull the wood straight as the roughing cutter goes by, then the knife in back drops on the diagonal timed a little behind it. But the net result is if the wood was curved when it went in the lathe, it will come out with similar curve, adjusted by which ever way the wood wanted to squirm anyway to relieve stress as it was cut.

Using an A joint allows the use of shorter sections where any stress or even minor MC changes will have less effect (as built, not as abused later :) ) However, by the same token, i think modern makers of FS cues reveal the stress in the separate components, and throw them out. If you have ever sawn the prongs for a FS joint, some go nuts, twist, compress snake around. Some lay dead straight. Guess which ones make sense to continue in a time consuming build? I believe most also machine the cue the same way an A joint style is machined, over a long time, with a taper system and saw or router so as to create a straight blank.

The problem with FS is it takes a lot more, and better, feature wood. So the basics are quite a bit more expensive. Then the cues are usually worth less than a built up A joint type, unless made like a 360 or really well developed with veneers and such.

smt
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Not only that, but most production house cues were (maybe still are?) made on back knife lathes. These pull the wood straight as the roughing cutter goes by, then the knife in back drops on the diagonal timed a little behind it. But the net result is if the wood was curved when it went in the lathe, it will come out with similar curve, adjusted by which ever way the wood wanted to squirm anyway to relieve stress as it was cut.

Using an A joint allows the use of shorter sections where any stress or even minor MC changes will have less effect (as built, not as abused later :) ) However, by the same token, i think modern makers of FS cues reveal the stress in the separate components, and throw them out. If you have ever sawn the prongs for a FS joint, some go nuts, twist, compress snake around. Some lay dead straight. Guess which ones make sense to continue in a time consuming build? I believe most also machine the cue the same way an A joint style is machined, over a long time, with a taper system and saw or router so as to create a straight blank.

The problem with FS is it takes a lot more, and better, feature wood. So the basics are quite a bit more expensive. Then the cues are usually worth less than a built up A joint type, unless made like a 360 or really well developed with veneers and such.

smt

https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=39
Single point and bearing support. Nifty to watch but cringy at the same time.
That is some 1.4" pieces joined together and tapered FOR THE FIRST time when they are already joined.
They may stay straight at the factory where the conditions are 75* and 50% MC.
Real world is another matter .
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=39
Single point and bearing support. Nifty to watch but cringy at the same time.
That is some 1.4" pieces joined together and tapered FOR THE FIRST time when they are already joined.
They may stay straight at the factory where the conditions are 75* and 50% MC.
Real world is another matter .

So that was the Falcon cue factory(or at least the factory they are built)? Pretty neat to see, not that I could tell the "cringy" part without you having pointed it out.

So, I am curious is this the industry standard a-joint that you mentioned in another thread, or just how the previous generation of builders like George did it? Is there even an "industry standard" or does it vary from cuemaker to cuemaker?

a%20joint%2003.jpg
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
So that was the Falcon cue factory(or at least the factory they are built)? Pretty neat to see, not that I could tell the "cringy" part without you having pointed it out.

So, I am curious is this the industry standard a-joint that you mentioned in another thread, or just how the previous generation of builders like George did it? Is there even an "industry standard" or does it vary from cuemaker to cuemaker?

For factories back then, that was pretty standard.

A-joint varies across the field.
The most common is probably tenon and screw from the handle going down the forearm's bottom.
Mine's a little different. I use the forearm coring dowel. Tenon and wood thread at the bottom going down the handle.
 
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DaveK

Still crazy after all these years
Silver Member
https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=39
Single point and bearing support. Nifty to watch but cringy at the same time.
That is some 1.4" pieces joined together and tapered FOR THE FIRST time when they are already joined.
They may stay straight at the factory where the conditions are 75* and 50% MC.
Real world is another matter .

There are a lot of Falcon cues around here that were made at that factory. No issues with mine and the others I know of.

Dave
 
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