Ultimate Argument: Pendulum vs Piston Stroke
- Thread starter Bobkitty
- Start date
Things come and go as will this.Also carbon clones are boring to watch...
Regards..
I like you Lou and for the most part you are always on point but I don’t think you realize in today’s pool world there is a serious amount of coaching going on and it’s producing results on the world stage not to say there is no Bubba Watson like in golf but most now are getting instructional lessons even the Pinoys ,
1
So lack of organization, lack of interest, declining number of pool halls etc in this country has NOTHING to do with it, right?
Its all about coaching on the other side.
Hmmm.
Do you realize there are a shit load of places in this country, that you cannot play pool until you are 21? The only tables are in bars.
Kind of hard to get kids started in the game, and cherry pick the players who show aptitude to focus on, when the pool has been drying up for 20+ years because of a plethora of things keeping them from playing pool.
Nope, coaching and dress codes. Thats why we suck on the world stage. Coaching and dress codes.
Im giving it another 15-20 years before people in this country are watering their lawns with Brawndo. :thumbup:
I'm with you on this.
I have no idea what my stroke is and I don't care.
I have made every shot on the table at one time or another and whatever I used worked.
I call that the "shovel stroke".
First time I watched him play, I had to quit watching, too.
And it did not happen that way in Taiwan.
And IN CHINA ( female players ).
They are very well coached.
Their strokes are not flashy.
With today's fast cloth, you don't need powerful stroke to win.
You need to hit the cue ball where you intend too consistently and at the speed needed.
Mika is no longer a force in Europe. His bicycle stroke is much more prone to error compared to the other players who have deliberate straight practice strokes with long pauses .
yes but.. pendulum or piston?
What are you using for lube, 10w30 or 5w30?
Its all about the friction. :thumbup:
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But, of course, slip stroke.
I've been told I use both.... depending on the shot of course. I really dont think about to tell you the truth. I could really, honestly say which type I use most often.
I'll tell you what I can say:
For a while now, I've been beating the total crap out of some "students" of a certain instructor that teaches that you keep your elbow froze in time..... lol.
Why worry about your elbow, it's not worried about you.... is it?
Look, do this and you will be fine with elbow drop or not:
Buy a quality table, cue and balls. Then practice shooting balls into the holes. Then practices shooting balls into other balls that go into the holes. Then practice kicking and banking balls around the table. Then learn to draw and follow the OB with the CB. Then learn to spin the CB and OB around with control.
There, after you can do all that chit over, over and over again, well..... ::::::::
YOU CAN GO GIVE LESSONS!!!!!
I'll throw my 2 cents in. I've worked with several players from beginners to the intermediate level the last few years. One of my biggest concerns was whether to teach the students a pendulum swing when they have already developed a fairly repeatable piston stroke. In my own game, I worked on limiting elbow drop.
I figured if I was going to teach it, that I should do it. Here are the results from my own experience. First, I did seem to be able to strike the cue ball more accurately. The drill in which you place the cue ball on the head spot and hit it to the end rail and have it come back and hit your tip seemed to be more consistent using a pendulum swing. But, the big issue that I had with the switch besides making it a habit was that the cue ball reacted differently. It was a subtle difference but I would need to re learn the small nuances from 30 years of experience.
I decided against using the pendulum in my own game in part due to the steep learning curve to implement the stroke and re learn cue ball position.
At first, I would encourage students to use a pendulum swing but a funny thing happened. If the student wasn't ready to really work on the change then they would just get frustrated as I did, and go back to their original stroking motion. So, my advice to other instructors including some of the most known is to take in account their students motivation.
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to pick Jerry Briesath's mind a bit over the subject at the VNEA nationals. I really liked how approached the subject. He wasn't overly concerned about elbow drop but he did want you to try an limit it.
Even though I no longer teach, the lesson that I learned about pendulum vs. piston is this. When I worked with newer students, I would teach them the pendulum swing. Less moving parts make this stroking motion easier to learn and reaps the greatest benefits. When working with more advanced students that have developed a fairly repeatable stroke through experience, I would concentrate on pre-shot routine and making sure that the tip at follow through was level or lower. I would talk about the pendulum v.s piston but generally recommended other ways to improve stroking motion rather than scrapping it for a pendulum swing.
Your tip will tell the story. If on follow through, the tip is lower than where you aimed on the cue ball say it is in the felt after striking the cue ball in the center then you have not dropped your elbow (pendulum). If the the tip is level then you have some elbow drop to maintain the levelness. If the tip is above level, then you have involved your shoulder (unless you are Mike Davis, I wouldn't recommend to any student).
So here is the nutshell from my experience, and hopefully it might help a few that have struggled with making the change. If you already have a repeatable stroke then I don't recommend making the switch to a pendulum swing. Players that have issues with a repeatable stroke or that are fairly new, then I suggest a pendulum.
I figured if I was going to teach it, that I should do it. Here are the results from my own experience. First, I did seem to be able to strike the cue ball more accurately. The drill in which you place the cue ball on the head spot and hit it to the end rail and have it come back and hit your tip seemed to be more consistent using a pendulum swing. But, the big issue that I had with the switch besides making it a habit was that the cue ball reacted differently. It was a subtle difference but I would need to re learn the small nuances from 30 years of experience.
I decided against using the pendulum in my own game in part due to the steep learning curve to implement the stroke and re learn cue ball position.
At first, I would encourage students to use a pendulum swing but a funny thing happened. If the student wasn't ready to really work on the change then they would just get frustrated as I did, and go back to their original stroking motion. So, my advice to other instructors including some of the most known is to take in account their students motivation.
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to pick Jerry Briesath's mind a bit over the subject at the VNEA nationals. I really liked how approached the subject. He wasn't overly concerned about elbow drop but he did want you to try an limit it.
Even though I no longer teach, the lesson that I learned about pendulum vs. piston is this. When I worked with newer students, I would teach them the pendulum swing. Less moving parts make this stroking motion easier to learn and reaps the greatest benefits. When working with more advanced students that have developed a fairly repeatable stroke through experience, I would concentrate on pre-shot routine and making sure that the tip at follow through was level or lower. I would talk about the pendulum v.s piston but generally recommended other ways to improve stroking motion rather than scrapping it for a pendulum swing.
Your tip will tell the story. If on follow through, the tip is lower than where you aimed on the cue ball say it is in the felt after striking the cue ball in the center then you have not dropped your elbow (pendulum). If the the tip is level then you have some elbow drop to maintain the levelness. If the tip is above level, then you have involved your shoulder (unless you are Mike Davis, I wouldn't recommend to any student).
So here is the nutshell from my experience, and hopefully it might help a few that have struggled with making the change. If you already have a repeatable stroke then I don't recommend making the switch to a pendulum swing. Players that have issues with a repeatable stroke or that are fairly new, then I suggest a pendulum.
Well part of it too is that kids in our country aren't interested anything that doesn't involve their thumbs and a screen.
There is also the issue that kids today, with a few exceptions, cannot afford to put in the hours and hours it takes to get good at pool. When I was growing up I could play all day and night for a few dollars. But now there are fewer rooms and many of those rooms are in the extortion business when it comes to their table rates.
Lou Figueroa
So they can pay their bills?
You've got to practice and figure out what works best for you.
No shortcuts or magic bullets.
Watch your favorite players.
Copy their stance.
Copy their stroke.
Loose Grip.
One day you'll figure out why they do what they do. As you're doing this, and practicing, and competing in stressful competition...you'll develop your OWN style naturally.
Don't overthink it. Play pool, compete, have fun. But this game offers something for everyone. Some of you are masters of analysis. You never compete, but can compete all of the backhand English analytics, etc, etc. And that is really cool. When I first started playing and couldn't run two I was trying to match up with the best player in my pool room. I'm not saying I was smart. I just grew up playing sports....and thought that I would "just play".
Some players like the pause. Some have more of a rhythm stroke. Some are pokey (Hopkins). All that matters is how the cue tip goes through the cue ball.
No shortcuts or magic bullets.
Watch your favorite players.
Copy their stance.
Copy their stroke.
Loose Grip.
One day you'll figure out why they do what they do. As you're doing this, and practicing, and competing in stressful competition...you'll develop your OWN style naturally.
Don't overthink it. Play pool, compete, have fun. But this game offers something for everyone. Some of you are masters of analysis. You never compete, but can compete all of the backhand English analytics, etc, etc. And that is really cool. When I first started playing and couldn't run two I was trying to match up with the best player in my pool room. I'm not saying I was smart. I just grew up playing sports....and thought that I would "just play".
Some players like the pause. Some have more of a rhythm stroke. Some are pokey (Hopkins). All that matters is how the cue tip goes through the cue ball.
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What about somebody starting out, trying to learn how to make the balls go where they want? Does it matter then?
I think starting with a pendulum stroke is a no-brainer. Modify it once you have enough experience to make decisions like that.
pj
chgo
Hah!... I used to get messed up watching Buddy with that hitch &
pause before the hit.. no sir, cain't do it. Pendulum 95%, Piston 5% for
delicate open bridge shots.
I have to agree with what you've written above. Most of us have a straight stroke with just the forearm moving and the elbow high and pinned. The upper arm and shoulder can easily cause crookedness. Shoulders normally go around the body. Upper arm can come inside or go out. Both will NOT be as straight of stroke as with the elbow pinned. If someone has learned to move it all and keep it straight, they've worked hard on it.
both get r done, being able to go to your off hand and gaining a stroke is true talent