Obvious Signs of an Amateur

Shuddy · May 24, 2019

Hi guys,

I’m having my first table (US pool, most of my formative years spent around snooker tables) installed in a few weeks. I’m not living in my home country and have no idea about the installer doing the job.

In your experience, what are some major signals to indicate the workman is an amateur/inexperienced professional/professional with a few things to learn. Quite happy to hear humorous answers (odd things you’ve witnessed), but also anything I need to keep an eye out for while the install happens.

Cheers!

tjohnson · May 25, 2019

In my case, the following issues were clear indication that I was dealing with incompetent installers:

1. Used a power drill to install rail bolts. On three of them, they had misaligned the bolt, drove it home anyway, and stripped the threads in the nut plate.

2. Slates weren't level.

3. Left one rail bolt out because they had installed the ball box too soon and couldn't reach the hole.

4. When I asked about the condition of the cushions, they said "fine". After they left I discovered that one had come unglued from the subrail but they covered it anyway.

5. To top it off, when I complained to the store that sent these clowns, the owner told me that his guys were top-quality professionals and that I should basically go to hell.

Problem, of course, is that I knew none of this was going to happen before they walked in the door, only after they left. Get recommendations ahead of time. It's difficult to undo incompetence once it's underway.

SmokinJoe46 · May 25, 2019

Shuddy said:
Hi guys,

I’m having my first table (US pool, most of my formative years spent around snooker tables) installed in a few weeks. I’m not living in my home country and have no idea about the installer doing the job.

In your experience, what are some major signals to indicate the workman is an amateur/inexperienced professional/professional with a few things to learn. Quite happy to hear humorous answers (odd things you’ve witnessed), but also anything I need to keep an eye out for while the install happens.

Cheers!

ask if they torque the rail bolts with a torque wrench or just 'by feel'. if they don't even own one, well...

kid · May 25, 2019

A true professional will use a machinist level. If yours doesn’t have one just don’t let him touch anything

Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant AzBilliards Forums

Lawnboy77 · May 25, 2019

tjohnson said:
Get recommendations ahead of time. It's difficult to undo incompetence once it's underway.

Extremely good advice! Seek out one of the mechanics listed in the sticky in this forum if at all possible. It sounds like you might be out of country...in that case, good luck.

One of the more memorable experiences for me was when one of the mechanics setting up my Anniversary a couple of years ago ask if I wanted the tabled leveled. I thought he was kidding and I started laughing, but after watching his expression I knew that he was serious. Evidently there are folks out there that pay good money for an antique Brunswick and don't care if it's even level. Anyway, I did tell him that I wanted it as level as he could get it, and for the most part, they did get that part right (with a Starrett machinist level too) Overall they were good guys just doing what they thought was right, so you can't fault them too much. You will however, save a lot time, and money by hiring the right person the first time.

bradsh98 · May 26, 2019

SmokinJoe46 said:
ask if they torque the rail bolts with a torque wrench or just 'by feel'. if they don't even own one, well...

If tightening rail bolts with a torque wrench is a critical measure of qualification for your pool table installer, you might be waiting years to find one worthy of working on your table.. Especially if you are located in another country...

Good luck!

bradsh98 · May 26, 2019

Lawnboy77 said:
Extremely good advice! Seek out one of the mechanics listed in the sticky in this forum if at all possible. It sounds like you might be out of country...in that case, good luck.

One of the more memorable experiences for me was when one of the mechanics setting up my Anniversary a couple of years ago ask if I wanted the tabled leveled. I thought he was kidding and I started laughing, but after watching his expression I knew that he was serious. Evidently there are folks out there that pay good money for an antique Brunswick and don't care if it's even level. Anyway, I did tell him that I wanted it as level as he could get it, and for the most part, they did get that part right (with a Starrett machinist level too) Overall they were good guys just doing what they thought was right, so you can't fault them too much. You will however, save a lot time, and money by hiring the right person the first time.

Most guys charge extra to level a table, if they are just there for a standard re-cover. I include leveling in my price, but I've come to find that I am in the minority.

Lawnboy77 · May 26, 2019

bradsh98 said:
Most guys charge extra to level a table, if they are just there for a standard re-cover. I include leveling in my price, but I've come to find that I am in the minority.

This was not just a recover. This table was purchased from a billiard restoration business...delivery and setup was included in the price of the table.

Shuddy · May 27, 2019

tjohnson said:
In my case, the following issues were clear indication that I was dealing with incompetent installers:

1. Used a power drill to install rail bolts. On three of them, they had misaligned the bolt, drove it home anyway, and stripped the threads in the nut plate.

2. Slates weren't level.

3. Left one rail bolt out because they had installed the ball box too soon and couldn't reach the hole.

4. When I asked about the condition of the cushions, they said "fine". After they left I discovered that one had come unglued from the subrail but they covered it anyway.

5. To top it off, when I complained to the store that sent these clowns, the owner told me that his guys were top-quality professionals and that I should basically go to hell.

Problem, of course, is that I knew none of this was going to happen before they walked in the door, only after they left. Get recommendations ahead of time. It's difficult to undo incompetence once it's underway.

Damn, that sounds like a nightmare.

Thanks guys, lots of good advice, particularly the torque wrench and machinist level. I live in Korea. As you probably know, they take their three cushion pretty seriously here (a game of exact standards), so I’m hoping that translates to a pocket table install.

I’m having a Min table (Korean brand) installed. http://mintable.co.kr/default/
I have no idea if they, including the table makers, have any knowledge of how much torque should be applied to the rails

trentfromtoledo · Jun 15, 2019

SmokinJoe46 said:
ask if they torque the rail bolts with a torque wrench or just 'by feel'. if they don't even own one, well...

A client of mine from the other day asked me if I had one with me and I said no. It was a subrail extension, cushion and recover job so I was going to be there 2 days. I went and picked one up. Finished the job and AFTER I tightened the rail bolts down I checked them with the torque wrench and I must have the "feel" because they were right....

Trent from Toledo

P.s. A machinist level is a must, the torque wrench I am not so sure about. Now that I own one, I will most likely use it, but, not sold on it being necessary.

Ssonerai · Jun 15, 2019

During the 80's I don't recall anyone using other than short carpenter/plumber levels and even torpedo levels. Maybe i was just oblivious? After starting to play again a few years ago, it seems like Starrett 98 series levels have become the new benchmark.

At this rate, in another 30 years it won't be possible to set up a table without an autocollimator & coordinate optical micrometer. :smile:

Seriously, I'm strongly in favor of accuracy, precision, repeatability, & good craftsmanship. So this is not an argument. It's historical curiosity - when did Starrett 98 series levels (& import equivalents) become essential? Were they in use by table techs in the old days and i just never knew it? I have Starrett 199's, Hilger Watt, & an optical level, am familiar with use of precision levels for setting up and for scraping machine way systems. I have built parts of tables, and tools for other people. I have never set one up.

smt

fastone371 · Jun 20, 2019

trentfromtoledo said:
A client of mine from the other day asked me if I had one with me and I said no. It was a subrail extension, cushion and recover job so I was going to be there 2 days. I went and picked one up. Finished the job and AFTER I tightened the rail bolts down I checked them with the torque wrench and I must have the "feel" because they were right....

Trent from Toledo

P.s. A machinist level is a must, the torque wrench I am not so sure about. Now that I own one, I will most likely use it, but, not sold on it being necessary.

Yeah, Im not sure I would use a torque wrench on rail bolts either even though I own many. Are there even torque specs for rail bolts available? My GCI has 3/8" diameter bolts, a typical torque value for that size of bolt is 35-45 foot pounds, Im not sure that I would want to put that much stress on a fastener fastened in wood. The reason we torque bolts is to stretch the bolt, thats what keeps them tight, if you are torquing a bolt to a setting below which bolt stretch is obtained you can easily do that just by feel, for someone that tightens rail bolts as often as you guys do a torque wrench is just not necessary.

Lawnboy77 · Jun 22, 2019

fastone371 said:
Yeah, Im not sure I would use a torque wrench on rail bolts either even though I own many. Are there even torque specs for rail bolts available? My GCI has 3/8" diameter bolts, a typical torque value for that size of bolt is 35-45 foot pounds, Im not sure that I would want to put that much stress on a fastener fastened in wood. The reason we torque bolts is to stretch the bolt, thats what keeps them tight, if you are torquing a bolt to a setting below which bolt stretch is obtained you can easily do that just by feel, for someone that tightens rail bolts as often as you guys do a torque wrench is just not necessary.

Just my take on torquing rail bolts. I'm also a mechanic (commercial aircraft) and I agree with you "fastone371". The torque wrench used for torquing rail bolts is more for the inexperienced, not for the good table mechanics. RKC, Geoff and Trent, just to name a few, don't really need a torque wrench for tightening table bolts, they do it all the time and can feel when it's right. Rail tightening is not critical torquing, like with aircraft engine mount bolts. This measurement in ft. lbs. is simply what Glenn's 35 or 40 years of experience says is a good amount of torque, and most importantly a safe amount that can be measured and applied periodically by anyone who has a decent torque wrench. Kudo's for the info Glenn! Everyone is now aware of the need to periodically retighten rail bolts, and most importantly, Trent and Geoff won't have to worry about being called out to a job because someone stripped out inserts, or even worse, snapped a slate.

Rex

realkingcobra · Jun 23, 2019

In my opinion, only amateurs use guesstimates and impact drills to tighten rail bolts, because it's more convenient, and lazy.

realkingcobra · Jun 23, 2019

The next time any of you go have new tires installed, ask if the tire technician torques the lug nuts on the wheels!

logical · Jun 23, 2019

Lawnboy77 said:
Just my take on torquing rail bolts. I'm also a mechanic (commercial aircraft) and I agree with you "fastone371". The torque wrench used for torquing rail bolts is more for the inexperienced, not for the good table mechanics. RKC, Geoff and Trent, just to name a few, don't really need a torque wrench for tightening table bolts, they do it all the time and can feel when it's right. Rail tightening is not critical torquing, like with aircraft engine mount bolts. This measurement in ft. lbs. is simply what Glenn's 35 or 40 years of experience says is a good amount of torque, and most importantly a safe amount that can be measured and applied periodically by anyone who has a decent torque wrench. Kudo's for the info Glenn! Everyone is now aware of the need to periodically retighten rail bolts, and most importantly, Trent and Geoff won't have to worry about being called out to a job because someone stripped out inserts, or even worse, snapped a slate.

Rex

Are you his press secretary or something? He's right fkin here.

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realkingcobra · Jun 23, 2019

logical said:
Are you his press secretary or something? He's right fkin here.

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No need for a press secretary, but people to like to repeatedly what they've learned, someday soon I won't be here anymore:thumbup:

logical · Jun 23, 2019

realkingcobra said:
No need for a press secretary, but people to like to repeatedly what they've learned, someday soon I won't be here anymore

He got it wrong though didn't he?...

So, just what would be a good torque for a GC2's rail bolts. My table has been up a year or so and I was about to check to see if they relaxed and loosened up at all although it doesn't show any signs of that.

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realkingcobra · Jun 23, 2019

logical said:
He got it wrong though didn't he?...

So, just what would be a good torque for a GC2's rail bolts. My table has been up a year or so and I was about to check to see if they relaxed and loosened up at all although it doesn't show any signs of that.

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Two different anchors for the GCs, the figure 8 nut plates, and the inserted capture nut. Two different torques.

logical · Jun 23, 2019

realkingcobra said:
Two different anchors for the GCs, the figure 8 nut plates, and the inserted capture nut. Two different torques.

I don't remember. I do remember they somehow pulled down on or near the top of the rail, not just an insert loaded from the bottom of the rail. I think they slid into a slot/pocket maybe. Is it something I could see from underneath if I take a bolt out?

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