How level is "level" for pool tables?

DaveK

DaveK

Still crazy after all these years
Silver Member
Texas Carom Club said:
get the bubble close as you can, no need to worry about it too much from there
Click to expand...

As I hope you know getting that bubble close depends on the level :)

Starrett 135A ... should be pretty easy to get bubble close
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/135A

Starrett 130 ... maybe a little tougher
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/130

Starrett 132 ... tougher yet but still reasonable (0.080"/foot when outside the line)
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/132-6

Starrett 98 is the standard pool table mechanic level ... 0.020"/foot when outside the lines
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/98-6 (this is the little one)

Starrett 199 ... forget this one :lol: ... about 0.0015"/foot when outside the line :eek:
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/199Z

Dave <-- has a recently re-vialed (an interesting exercise) 98-6 and a 98-12

<edit> I noticed that you specified the level (and hence the precision) in a later post :)
 
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Texas Carom Club

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
Mine is lile this and even in some spots half the bubble off
A nive 10 inch long level
At .0005 a line, about 8 times smaller than a hair
I dont notice a thing
And i indicate and level parts all day a work


picture.php
 
DaveK

DaveK

Still crazy after all these years
Silver Member
Texas Carom Club said:
Mine is lile this and even in some spots half the bubble off
A nive 10 inch long level
At .0005 a line, about 8 times smaller than a hair
I dont notice a thing
And i indicate and level parts all day a work


picture.php
Click to expand...

:eek: a 199 ish level :eek: Don't lean on the table :lol:

Dave
 
jviss

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DaveK said:
As I hope you know getting that bubble close depends on the level :)

Starrett 135A ... should be pretty easy to get bubble close
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/135A

Starrett 130 ... maybe a little tougher
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/130

Starrett 132 ... tougher yet but still reasonable (0.080"/foot when outside the line)
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/132-6

Starrett 98 is the standard pool table mechanic level ... 0.020"/foot when outside the lines
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/98-6 (this is the little one)

Starrett 199 ... forget this one :lol: ... about 0.0015"/foot when outside the line :eek:
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/199Z

Dave
Click to expand...

Excellent, thanks. I have several carpenters and tool box levels, too coarse; and a machinist's level that's too sensitive, at 0.0005"/10" - will drive you crazy. I have a Starrett 98 on order. The Starrett 98 series is just right for this job, per the professionals. The documentation says "the 6" through 18" (150-450mm) main level vials have graduations that are approximately 80-90 seconds or .005" per foot (0.42mm per meter)." I don't have mine yet, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "0.020"/foot when outside the lines." Do you read the leading or trailing edge of the bubble against the graduations? I would think the former.

Thanks very much.

jv
 
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sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can tell you that you are wasting your time using a regular level when leveling a table, unless you have purchased a very accurate, very expensive level.
Tables need to be leveled so that the angle is less than 0.01 degrees. Some engineer/machinist levels are more accurate than 0.01 degrees, but they are hundreds of dollars.
Most other levels available are only accurate to around 0.3 degrees, and laser levels are only accurate to around 0.03 degrees.
In my opinion, nothing is better than rolling balls on the table.
Balls and gravity don't lie.
 
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Texas Carom Club

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
sbpoolleague said:
I can tell you that you are wasting your time using a regular level when leveling a table, unless you have purchased a very accurate, very expensive level.
Tables need to be leveled so that the angle is less than 0.01 degrees. Engineers/Machinists levels are more accurate than 0.01 degrees, but they are hundreds of dollars.
Most other levels available are only accurate to around 0.3 degrees, and laser levels are only accurate to around 0.03 degrees.
In my opinion, nothing is better than rolling balls on the table.
Balls and gravity don't lie.
Click to expand...


Mine is machine shop grade amd costs just 90 buvks new from the local tool supply comapny
 
T

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sbpoolleague said:
I can tell you that you are wasting your time using a regular level when leveling a table, unless you have purchased a very accurate, very expensive level.

Tables need to be leveled so that the angle is less than 0.01 degrees. Engineers/Machinists levels are more accurate than 0.01 degrees, but they are hundreds of dollars.

Most other levels available are only accurate to around 0.3 degrees, and laser levels are only accurate to around 0.03 degrees.

In my opinion, nothing is better than rolling balls on the table.

Balls and gravity don't lie.
Click to expand...



And rolling them without the felt on is the best indicator. Over and over again. Across the seams in all directions at slow speed. When you cover the table you will no longer get a accurate reading since the felt is less than a perfect surface. So when trying to get a precision reading with the felt on you can forget about it.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
Texas Carom Club

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
sbpoolleague said:
I will bet it is not accurate enough. What brand is it?
Click to expand...


I will bet that it is
You can see the graduations on it in my photo
Starret will measure the same

Much like cues, cheap ones will work just the same as expansive ones and beyond a certain point your just paying for a name and to be part of a club

I use import brand od mics for 10 yrs
They measure all the same as the starrets in the shop they have carbide tips, and they are much smoother than starrets

So again, ive got experience in this matter
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ThinSlice said:
And rolling them without the felt on is the best indicator. Over and over again. Across the seams in all directions at slow speed. When you cover the table you will no longer get a accurate reading since the felt is less than a perfect surface. So when trying to get a precision reading with the felt on you can forget about it.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
Click to expand...

That makes no sense whatsoever. So you cherried out the level on the naked table...then what? You have to lift the slate out, install the felt, then put the slate back, then re-level the table because you moved the slate.
 
jviss

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sbpoolleague said:
I can tell you that you are wasting your time using a regular level when leveling a table, unless you have purchased a very accurate, very expensive level.
Tables need to be leveled so that the angle is less than 0.01 degrees. Some engineer/machinist levels are more accurate than 0.01 degrees, but they are hundreds of dollars.
Most other levels available are only accurate to around 0.3 degrees, and laser levels are only accurate to around 0.03 degrees.
In my opinion, nothing is better than rolling balls on the table.
Balls and gravity don't lie.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. I think this is the first one that articulates a specification for level for the table, which you state, if I interpret it correctly, is 0,01º. If my trig serves me well, that's 0.002"/ft., which I think is too strict; it's less than the sensitivity of the machinist's level the pros use, which is 0.005"/ft. So, maybe you are off my a decimal point? A spec of 0.1º would be 0.021"/ft., which seems more reasonable to me, and corresponds to what I read in the Brunswick Gold Crown I 1961 service manual. (The Starrett model 98, 8", 0.005"/ft. level goes for about $150, new.)
 
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G

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sbpoolleague said:
That makes no sense whatsoever. So you cherried out the level on the naked table...then what? You have to lift the slate out, install the felt, then put the slate back, then re-level the table because you moved the slate.
Click to expand...
HUH???? You don't move slate to put on cloth. You obviously have never re-covered a table.
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Texas Carom Club said:
I will bet that it is
You can see the graduations on it in my photo
Starret will measure the same

Much like cues, cheap ones will work just the same as expansive ones and beyond a certain point your just paying for a name and to be part of a club

I use import brand od mics for 10 yrs
They measure all the same as the starrets in the shop they have carbide tips, and they are much smoother than starrets

So again, ive got experience in this matter
Click to expand...

A 12" Starrett Machinists Level has an accuracy of 0.005 inches per foot. For a regulation table that equates to 0.0225 inches across the width of the table.
The WPA equipment specifications call for an overall flatness within .010 inches across the width of the table. Therefore the 12" Starrett Machinists Level is not accurate enough to do the job right.

Perhaps your level is. Do you know your level's accuracy?
 
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