Derby Observations of a Non-Pro Player

freddy the beard said:

I watch these matches and notice that nobody ever tries to put any Psyche on Efren. They just gentlemanly put their heads on the block and let Effy chop it off. I would love to get a guy like Joyner or Frost and teach them the more insidious, psychological side of competing. I would show them how to make the match more painful for the opponent. To ingrave my point, has anyone ever seen Efren not having a nice time at the table?

the Beard

Bank on, brother! Old school pool.

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I have an accustat match with efren vs tony ellin. tony is visibly disrespectful to him in my opinion, and he just ends up robbing him. he put the pressure on him by running out, one or two things don't go efren's way, and next thing you know tony wins the match. further, i believe, the commentators said that tony had a good record with efren.

another accustat i have worth mention, shannon daulton vs efren at, i think, the legends of one pocket semi finals. shannon isn't disrepectful, but in my opinion, he just plays strong, aggressive pool. he wasn't afraid and efren felt the heat and dogged many shots. also worthy of mention, the hill-hill game turned out to be an uptable game. although efren did wrestle his way back in the game, he has NO patience for this type of stuff. he wants to shoot like nobody i've ever seen, except maybe mcready. somebody mentioned how efrens "thinking is just above the rest" in one pocket. i just highly disagree with this. efren wins with overpowering offensive execution and creativity. i feel his defensive "thinking" and patience is weak relative to many players. so what you say, well... give other players his offensive talent and i feel he'd get robbed by quite a few players i can think of (in one pocket). i only bring this up because i don't like it when people blow his "one pocket thinking" into something it isn't (to go back to my original point, this is the type of stuff i feel perpetuates a champion into winning more than he should).

Mike - great post; the kind of literate, well-thought-out feedback that we need more of. I couldn't make the DCC this year and was hoping to get more reporting (like yours) from the people who were there. I watched Charlie Williams' game jump up a notch after playing daily with NicK Varner, and have seen decent players turn into real tough players after spending a few months playing the old Florida Tour events against Buddy Hall, Tommy Kennedy, Dennis Hatch, etc. Being around the best does rub off, like you said.

Enzo - I don't entirely disagree with what you said in your post; I've seen pro players who were playing flawlessly and just melted when they had to play Buddy Hall. But I never thought this took anything away from Buddy's game; I give him credit for earning the respect and, often, awe that makes players wilt when they get in the box with him. Same with Efren. I kinda hate to see a player as accomplished and decent as Efren get jabbed a little because of what other players are doing (or not doing). As a pool fan, I feel fortunate to be able to watch Efren play in person and through TV and ACCU-STATS. Nothing personal, I used to defend Michael Jordan a lot, too; I just gotta speak up when "once-in-a-generation" talents get shortchanged for stuff they have no control over.

What most of what you are referring to is short match play on video tape. Have you ever watched Efren play long gambling matches? Sure many can beat him in short races but Efren seems to always make adjustments during a long match and come out on top. This is his greatness. He just keeps coming and coming Try to watch the Color of Money match between Efren and Earl in Hong Kong. Efren just overcomes pressure and comes out on top I have seen it time and time again

During the Derby Efren just played heads above anyone else. Pros like Corey, Gabe, and Johnny were just awed by his one pocket play Those who keep denigrating his stature just dont want to face reality. That he is one of the greatest cueist that has ever lived.

Im sorry Freddy. I disagree with you about Efren. You might have some notoriety here and one pocket.org, so does Billy Incardona and Danny Diliberto. And they seem to think like me. Right now he is the best. Certainly his game has never been overrated like so many others. How many titles must he win and how many champions must he defeat before he can get the simple recognition that he deserves. To say that his pattern play is weak is a joke. 8 ball is all pattern play and he just keeps beating everyone in that discipline. Cornerman you better go back and look at all those videos you took of Efren and Corey play and see his shotmaking ability.

Disagree about what?

yobagua said:

... Those who keep denigrating his stature just dont want to face reality. That he is one of the greatest cueist that has ever lived.

Im sorry Freddy. I disagree with you about Efren. ...Billy Incardona and Danny Diliberto.... they seem to think like me. Right now he is the best. Certainly his game has never been overrated like so many others. How many titles must he win and how many champions must he defeat before he can get the simple recognition that he deserves.

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Just what are we disagreeing about? Efren is the greatest Onepocket player ever. I make that statement in writing in my next book. I did the commentary on the Alex/Efren semi-final match. The DVD will be available at the end of Feb. On the tape, Incardona and I affirm over and over the magnificence of Effy's game. To think otherwise is ridiculous. You completely misread my thread. My point was, just because he is the world's best doesnt mean everybody else has to lay down and die when they play him. I am a very competitive guy and I concede nothing to nobody. I always played to win, whatever the odds. That's all I am suggesting to the players under Efren.
Artie Bodendorfer was the world's best for several years, that never stopped me from scheming ways to be able to play him and win. I didn't just leave him alone, I tested him every time I could muster up some new moves and a new bankroll. Bugs was the best banker for years, I played him every time I seen him. I never gave up on the hope of being able to eventually surpass those great players. Once in awhile I would win, but mostly I was never able to achieve their speed. My view is, if you dont think you have it in you to be the best in the world, just play for fun and get a day job.

the Beard
Bank on, brother!

misunderstanding

i initiated this discussion about efren's game, if you didn't read the entire thread, all i said was that i feel efren wins much more often than he should when you consider how strong the top players are nowadays. i don't dispute efren's greatness, believe it or not (when considering my posts), i feel he's the best pool player (all around) to have ever lived. to have a record like he does in races to 11 9-ball and races to 3 in one pocket doesn't make sense because people play good enough to knock him out of tournaments with those short races. but they hardly ever do. Why? because people worship him too much IMO. stop worshipping him (as i've done in this post, lol) and he's very beatable.

i'm reaching here, but it is part of asian culture to defeat your opponent before battle ever begins and make your opponent realize his own inferiority to achieve the easiest victory, ultimate victory comes when an opponent doesn't even fight. this is what people do to themseleves. people don't think they have a chance when they play him, but i feel they are terribly mistaken. even a fairly strong player can put 5 or 6 racks together. i have a little experimant here for people who know efren, ask him who his favorite pool player is or what player he learned the most from. if he tells you a name then maybe i'm wrong, if not, that means he is very concerned about making players feel in their heads that they have nno chance to beat him, but he knows they do, he knows better than anyone.

ok, nice initial post mike! and thanks to all for the discussion!

Youre right Freddy I do agree with your final analysis. You have to have the heart of a lion in any battle. But I dont think it is the fact that ADORING Efren is the cause of his defeating top players. Most of it is because of his excellent play. The big part of why people break down against Efren is because his weapon arsenal is so huge. I saw time and time again of his use of the cue to demolish someone. People talk about his break and his shotmaking weakness. But Ive seen him run 10 racks in a row. How does he get there with a weak ass break. At the Derby Efren was outmoving Gabe Owens in a 9/7 game. So Gabe left Efren with a 10 foot spot shot jacked up over 2 balls. Efren changed his shaft and proceeded to slam the spot shot in for the win.
It is not the adulation that Efren defeats people but his skill. It is ones own human weakness that succumbs to it.

enzo said:

i have a little experimant here for people who know efren, ask him who his favorite pool player is or what player he learned the most from. if he tells you a name then maybe i'm wrong, if not, that means he is very concerned about making players feel in their heads that they have nno chance to beat him, but he knows they do, he knows better than anyone.

ok, nice initial post mike! and thanks to all for the discussion!

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His favorite player and the one he looked up to was Jose Parica.

Still doesn't mean you're wrong...but you are right about people looking up to him to much WHILE they're playing him. They can save it for later..........AFTER they beat him.

It is digusting what he does on a pool table though..........and to be so mild mannered and humble about it! Picture some of these cocky SOB's out there if they played like him, you'd have to kill them for sure. That's all the more reason to admire Efren.

the cocky guys didn't distract me in the pool hall much. Its the guys who think they are so smooth with the waitresses or the guys who can't do nothing better than talk thrash. I sure do like to watch these geniuses think up stuff to say, its the predictable ones that are the worst for me.

I would have been long dead by now

stevelomako said:

His favorite player and the one he looked up to was Jose Parica.

Still doesn't mean you're wrong...but you are right about people looking up to him too much WHILE they're playing him. They can save it for later..........AFTER they beat him.

It is digusting what he does on a pool table though..........and to be so mild mannered and humble about it! Picture some of these cocky SOB's out there if they played like him, you'd have to kill them for sure. That's all the more reason to admire Efren.

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It is amazing Steve, how humble and nice Efren is about robbing everybody. It's hard to get mad at him. When I was playing, one of my specialties was heating up my opponent with subtle needling, and the better I played the more heat I would apply. When I got done playing good on a guy, you could fry hamburgers on his head. That was my style, it insured me of continuous action. Guys I beat were always hot to get even with me. It gave me an edge. If I would have been able to hit them with the Efren barrages, somebody would have for sure have offed me by now.

the Beard
Bank on, brother! Old school pool.

freddy the beard said:

It is amazing Steve, how humble and nice Efren is about robbing everybody. It's hard to get mad at him. When I was playing, one of my specialties was heating up my opponent with subtle needling, and the better I played the more heat I would apply. When I got done playing good on a guy, you could fry hamburgers on his head. That was my style, it insured me of continuous action. Guys I beat were always hot to get even with me. It gave me an edge. If I would have been able to hit them with the Efren barrages, somebody would have for sure have offed me by now.

the Beard
Bank on, brother! Old school pool.

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Yep, Efrens' putting that SOFT con on us real good isn't he?

People would crap their pants if they heard he smashes up hotel rooms like "The Who" used to.

Efren at DCC

I have enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread and especially the one's referring to Efren's one-pocket game. It is probably impossible to ever prove who is the best of all time at the game of one-pocket, but here is one thing I know for sure: In my 45 years of watching people play the game, I have never seen a more dominating performance than Efren last three matches at DCC. He wasn't perfect (once making a horrible break against Alex), but in the 9 games he won against Alex and Jason, there were, as I recall, 5 eight & outs, 2 nine & outs, a six & out (Jason had made two balls in Efren's pocket), and almost an 8 & out in the final game (a long-rail bank just missed for a seventh ball and Efren was straight in on what would have been the game winner). In other words, in 8 of these last nine games, whenever he had a shot at his pocket, he was out. His defense in the games against Jason was so complete that I don't recall Jason ever having a shot at his pocket, not even a one-rail bank. I don't think Jason made a ball in his pocket in the three games. Just about everyone around me seemed to agree that it was the greatest one-pocket exhibition they had ever witnessed. I'm just glad I was there to see it!

stop it mike, you're making me wanna drop another $100 to accustats. they were there right?

freddy the beard said:

You are right on the beam. For the top players to have a chance with Effy, they must first stop adoring him! I played Effy many, many times and had great success with him (which means I didn't lose every time I played him). When I was playing out of Bensingers in Chicago, we had an attitude that everybody who walked through the door was a sucker. We looked upon everybody as just fresh meat. Champions received few accolades in Bensingers. Bensingers had been the home to Champions for 80 years, so we were comfortable around champions. If there was going to be any pre game intimidating it was going to be done by us. That was the main reason most road players who came to Chicago stayed well clear of Bensingers. Effy is the greatest player in the game, but his success rate in short race tournament matches is disproportionate to the competition he faces. I watch these matches and notice that nobody ever tries to put any Psyche on Efren. They just gentlemanly put their heads on the block and let Effy chop it off. I would love to get a guy like Joyner or Frost and teach them the more insidious, psychological side of competing. I would show them how to make the match more painful for the opponent. To ingrave my point, has anyone ever seen Efren not having a nice time at the table?

the Beard

Bank on, brother! Old school pool.

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I disagree with you completely. When the pros play Efren they rarely play bad. I have 11 tapes of Efren playing different pros. He lost four of those matches I have, and each and every tape they both shot on average .900. I have seen Efren play so many times, and when he plays amatuers, yes they fall apart, but rarely when he plays another pro do they play like a chicken. Everyone knows what Efren is capable of, and most people try to avoid safety battles with him. Efren does not play just as good as your average top pro, his cueball control and kicking is in another world, and the other pros acknowledge that and adjust their games accordingly. Engaging in a safety battle with Efren is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline

By the way, many old timers have played or seen your buddy Arty play 1-pocket, but they still say Efren is the greatest. You may have thought he was a sucker then, but he didn't play one pocket as good as he does now.

cuetechasaurus said:

Efren does not play just as good as your average top pro, his cueball control and kicking is in another world, and the other pros acknowledge that and adjust their games accordingly.

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statements like this were the reason i started this discussion. is it just me, or isn't stuff like this largely overstated? efren has a cueball that is "in another world" when compared to parica or buddy (for example)??? i would think efrens cueball is very good of course. but, if you could rate players cueball control on a scale, efren would be high, we all know that. but, there would be players near or even above him, and many, many players very near him. but, somehow in the pool world every accolade and overstatement gets thrown efrens way. but that's no big deal, i really don't mind. this thread was about how efren wins more than he should considering the fact that the races are normally short and the other players play almost as well. i have my opinions as to how he does it previously in this thread.

enzo said:

statements like this were the reason i started this discussion. is it just me, or isn't stuff like this largely overstated? efren has a cueball that is "in another world" when compared to parica or buddy (for example)??? i would think efrens cueball is very good of course. but, if you could rate players cueball control on a scale, efren would be high, we all know that. but, there would be players near or even above him, and many, many players very near him. but, somehow in the pool world every accolade and overstatement gets thrown efrens way. but that's no big deal, i really don't mind. this thread was about how efren wins more than he should considering the fact that the races are normally short and the other players play almost as well. i have my opinions as to how he does it previously in this thread.

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Buddy is known for playing close-up perfect position. Efren is known for being able to get the cueball to go places that nobody else would even dream of. The difference is that there are certain racks that Efren runs out that Buddy, Parica, Sigel, or anyone else wouldn't get out, they would probably duck. I personally think that you haven't seen Efren play enough. You probably saw a couple of his mediocre performances and based your opinions on him from that.

I also noticed that when quoting me, you didn't include what I said about how Efren kicks. That is probably the most outstanding part of his game.

Also, I will tell you exactly how and why Efren is able to win all of those short races, etc. It's not because he is feared. It's because he is able to change the percentages in his favor for winning a game more often than other players. His kicking alone wins him many more games than any player out there. He is able to win in situations that he is supposed to have the worst of.

my final word on this

the fact is, despite what people think, all the top players really play very close. is efren a little better than the rest? perhaps, but people make largely overstated comments about efrens game all the time considering how close other players are to him. people love to talk about the unbeatable quality of a certain player, and shake their heads in disbelief when they watch him play. i guess it's just human nature.

pool is all about gaining an edge over your opponent, because when it comes down to it, all the players play well enough to win. efren knows this better than anybody. in one of my previous posts, i thought it would be interesting to do an experiment. ask efren who his favorite pool player is. again, if he tells you a name maybe i'm wrong, but if he doens't answer then to me that means he is very concerned with projecting an image of supeiriority.... he wants to win by making his opponent believe he has no chance. what could you conclude from this, that he knows that people play good enough to beat him, and he's looking for an edge.

to wrap this up, the last thing i am is a efren basher or something like that. i think if you read all the posts on this thread you'll find the opposite. my comments are based more out of my interest in sports psychology. more specifically, the pattern i have witnessed many times where a number of top players, in any sport, will battle it out for a period of time, all seemingly very close in skill level. then, one day a player wins say the world championship, and starts getting accolades left and right, his ego being boosted all the time, and next thing you know nobody can touch him. why is that? imo it has to do with peoples thoughts, statements and reactions to him, and less with the players actual skill level being that far above the other players.

I too enjoy the study of sport psychology. I agree that in many sports where the top players are very close in ability that the psychology of who is perceived to be the "best" at the current time does become a factor in the mind of the opponent of the "best". This is not the case with Efren. That psychology may allow the "best" to stay on top a little longer than they should, but with abilities so close, they don't stay on top forever in other sports. Efren has been on top forever. I will also point out that when Efren first hit the U.S., nobody knew who he was while he played tournaments under the name Caesar Morales(I think the name's correct). He won one tournament after another with opponents not knowing he was the "best". People have competed closely and sometimes beaten Efren in tournaments, but even though they go to 11 or 13, they are relatively short sets. Nobody will get there in the long run playing him. I've been around pool for many years and Efren is the greatest player to play the game in my time. With every great player though, they usually have some weakness. Efren's is his break in nineball. He doesn't have a powerfull break. If he had a break like Archer's or Bustamante's, he'd win almost every nineball tounament out there. The break isn't as big a factor in eightball as it is in nineball which is why you'll see Efren as "King of the Hill" for a long time on the IPT. You don't use a powerfull break in one pocket, so in that game, he has no weakness. That's why he can give Cliff Joyner 9-7. Cliff is possibly the second best one pocket player in the world with Jose Parica putting up a good arguement for that title. Efren already gave Cliff 8-7 and robbed him. When the best player in the world can give the second best player in the world 9-7, that's not psychology, that's talent. Efren has the best cueball control, he has the best stroke, and his imagination is unparallel. If you don't believe me, you can watch some accu-stat matches of his and listen to the commentators. His shape play fools the commentators' predictions in his matches more than any other player out there with his position always ending up better than the announcers' suggestions. They continously talk about how he sees things other great players don't. You want to do an experiment by asking Efren who he thinks is the greatest player out there, you should ask every other player who has played him that question and watch them all respond with the name of Efren. Just about every player in the world can't be wrong can they?

enzo said:

statements like this were the reason i started this discussion. is it just me, or isn't stuff like this largely overstated? efren has a cueball that is "in another world" when compared to parica or buddy (for example)??? i would think efrens cueball is very good of course. but, if you could rate players cueball control on a scale, efren would be high, we all know that. but, there would be players near or even above him, and many, many players very near him. but, somehow in the pool world every accolade and overstatement gets thrown efrens way. but that's no big deal, i really don't mind. this thread was about how efren wins more than he should considering the fact that the races are normally short and the other players play almost as well. i have my opinions as to how he does it previously in this thread.

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I have been going to pro tournaments for 35 years and have seen the very best play and have never seen anyone put the cue ball in places or do the things with it that efren does. He uses kill english better than anyone I have ever seen and this makes him unbeatable in one pocket, make one mistake in the first rack and you lose the match. You say his cueball control is just good? Are you sure you have seen him play in person? You are the first person I have ever heard say that and I am really amazed.

Its obvious that you have never spent quality time seeing Efren play. Ive watched him for hours not only in tournaments but in high action and cheap sets. Also "friendly" games with Filipino comrades like Parica and Luat where nothing was on the line but a hundred but a lot of ego which was more precious.
Ive seen Efren run 5 or six racks. One time in LA he ran 8 against Alex Pagulayan. How can he run all those racks with a "weak" break? He has a rack that suits his game. He doesnt slam em and jam em with a loud sound ala Shannon or Busta but one that allows him to run out when he pockets a ball.
All you are doing is parroting what some non entity who wants to point out something negative about a great player. His break is fine.