Basic Stroke Question
- Thread starter skipbales
- Start date
Thanks
What I discovered was the motion you teach is controlled almost exclusively by the forearm. It is also the most accurate method for a very wide range of shots. It works best for me if the muscles in the hand and fingers do not try to "help". I feel the muscles in my forearm constrict and lift (towards the chest as you demonstrate). The hands and wrist just need to be relaxed and allow the stick to force them to hinge and unhinge as needed to accommodate. That is the stroke and is by far the most useful stroke.
That said when you just need a tiny tap, the forearm is too powerful and does not seem to have a good range in the under 24" area. For that there is not enough take back or follow through to need it. Those shots are really finesse and (for me anyway) need the precision of "touch" controlled by the hands, wrist and fingers.
Finally, on real power shots combining the biceps, forearm and wrist in a coordinated motion seems to develop the most power. I see many (even pros) who employ the entire body. I don't think the body adds much, if anything, to the power. It is slow and ponderous, also difficult to manage. But precocking wrist and realeasing it through the down arc of the swing increases the stick speed for that portion of the arc. This is true in all stick and ball games. It doesn't affect the time at impact but increases the speed before and through impact. Speed = power (or distance). This is the most powerful and least accurate stroke. It is the least accurate because of all the variables, even without huge body movements.
The main take away from this discussion for me is how important keeping the hand and wrist neutral on most strokes is. It is so easy to unconsciously tighten the grip and squeeze or twist or force the cue forward and change the speed from what the shooter's subconscious intended. Just like it is important to reverse this process on a very soft tap type shot. No forearm there or you will have trouble hitting soft enough.
As always, thank you for your training and your support. Happy thanksgiving.
Skip
Hey Scott, thanks for the input. Of course I never mentioned or considered a flick of the wrist nor the time on the cue ball. All that goes without saying. It is all about what you do to generate stick speed prior to impact.
What I discovered was the motion you teach is controlled almost exclusively by the forearm. It is also the most accurate method for a very wide range of shots. It works best for me if the muscles in the hand and fingers do not try to "help". I feel the muscles in my forearm constrict and lift (towards the chest as you demonstrate). The hands and wrist just need to be relaxed and allow the stick to force them to hinge and unhinge as needed to accommodate. That is the stroke and is by far the most useful stroke.
That said when you just need a tiny tap, the forearm is too powerful and does not seem to have a good range in the under 24" area. For that there is not enough take back or follow through to need it. Those shots are really finesse and (for me anyway) need the precision of "touch" controlled by the hands, wrist and fingers.
Finally, on real power shots combining the biceps, forearm and wrist in a coordinated motion seems to develop the most power. I see many (even pros) who employ the entire body. I don't think the body adds much, if anything, to the power. It is slow and ponderous, also difficult to manage. But precocking wrist and realeasing it through the down arc of the swing increases the stick speed for that portion of the arc. This is true in all stick and ball games. It doesn't affect the time at impact but increases the speed before and through impact. Speed = power (or distance). This is the most powerful and least accurate stroke. It is the least accurate because of all the variables, even without huge body movements.
The main take away from this discussion for me is how important keeping the hand and wrist neutral on most strokes is. It is so easy to unconsciously tighten the grip and squeeze or twist or force the cue forward and change the speed from what the shooter's subconscious intended. Just like it is important to reverse this process on a very soft tap type shot. No forearm there or you will have trouble hitting soft enough.
As always, thank you for your training and your support. Happy thanksgiving.
Skip
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Hey Fran, thanks, as always, for your insight on this thread. Happy Thanksgiving!!
Skip
Hey Bob, thanks (as always) for the input. Your testing process is what I used to test my theories. You were exactly correct. The forearm is the Boss almost all the time.
Only on the shortest taps does the hand or wrist action take precedent. I also appreciate your advice not to worry so much about all that, just do it. Happy Thanksgiving!!
Skip
You are correct in your analysis of numbers vs hard soft, etc. It gets really hard to convey speed once you get down to the really soft shots. As you say, at some point it is all about intuition. A lot of my focus was on really soft tap type shots under 2 diamonds total. Tiny little bump shots and nip safeties where there is almost no stroke at all.
Thanks for the input. Happy Thanksgiving!!
Skip
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Yeah Buzz, it is a character flaw. I over analyze things. Thanks for the advice. Happy Thanksgiving!!!
Skip
Immediately thought the same thing. CJ pre-cocks his wrist in near full radial deviation, essentially making a wrist flick nearly impossible. He probably gets some extra speed using his fingers, by squeezing the cue (a certain way) just before contact.
No no i never said anything about intuition.
Look whole numbers are all exactly 1 value larger or smaller than the next higher or lower digit.
In math we have to know what ZERO is this is Neutral.....
In pool your neutral is going to be your generally used standard speed shot.....which is 1.5 table lengths of travel.....i know youve taken the class so you understand that i'm NOT giving that speed a value of ZERO.....you know its a 3.
You need to focus on completing your motion to its finish/dead end of the hand at the "chest/nipple" whatever and however your bodys made will determin that exact point.
you pull back the same.....you finish the same......remember penetration of the tip throught the cb past its, lets call it the event horizon....is MUTE and completely of no value or gain in speed or power or rotation etc.
When you have super soft shots.....start with the hand at the finish spot, place the tip a frogs hair away from the CB and pull back small and finish as per normal. Called "short finish" often. it is a complete stroke, despite its at times, extreme compactness.
The stroke is made of 3 movements
1: the gate
2: the stride
3: the glide
what too many do is
1:smoke the tires out the gate
1a: fishtail and wobble the cue because of this
2: recover the errant side to side motion and over accelerate
2a: stroke tightens said side to side fishtailing tho never totally straightens
3: Holy shit i'm coming in hot
3a: Emergency brake/Jake Brake/maybe throw out a parachute
the stroke isnt a top fuel dragster
its more like a 600-1000hp car.....with a 10speed transmission and low gearing
it doesn't need to get any hole shot, it gently rolls out the gate, and CONSISTENT ACCELERATION IS APPLIED and it glides into its top end effortlessly.
you can not have an effortless stroke jerking it out the gate.
put your cue away
stand up straight
arms to your side
now just bend the arm at the elbow and close it till its done closing.
now do it slow as snail shit, now general shot speed, now break speed.....back to snail shit, now tortise......
sit on the toilet.....and while your taking a dump.....work that arm
watch tv.....work that arm
this is not something one remotely needs a cue stick in their hand to master
as a matter of fact....if you put that cue away.....itll help you more not using it and just working that arm.
and notice how nicely you can do all that without the cue in your hand....then suddenly its like its got bad magic and influences the hand in odd ways.....which is nothing but bs.....bad and errant focus on NOTHING.
go search and find anything you can that i've put on this board about all this.
the problem isn't you its your way you are trying to communicate with your brain and body.....put the cue down.....work that arm.
if you cant get it without a cue in your hand.....no reason to pick it back up if mastery is the goal.
wurk wurk wurk wurk dat arm
-Grey Workaholic Ghost
https://www.facebook.com/RoysBasement/videos/2304243136348286/?t=985
Orcollo lets the cue slip then catches it. You can see the tip go straight and not dip at all.
FWIW
Orcollo lets the cue slip then catches it. You can see the tip go straight and not dip at all.
FWIW
I thought the same also. I was taught to let the cue hang loose in your hand, just enough grip to keep from dropping it, and the wrist action will be normal/natural.
What professional players use a Punch Stroke? I'd like to learn the punch stroke, but i find myself Slapping at the cue ball, instead of a good follow through.
Posted by Gray Ghost above:
When you have super soft shots.....start with the hand at the finish spot, place the tip a frogs hair away from the CB and pull back small and finish as per normal. Called "short finish" often. it is a complete stroke, despite its at times, extreme compactness.
I hope that folks that read this took it to the table............it's the nutz.
Thanks for the tip Keebie.
John
When you have super soft shots.....start with the hand at the finish spot, place the tip a frogs hair away from the CB and pull back small and finish as per normal. Called "short finish" often. it is a complete stroke, despite its at times, extreme compactness.
I hope that folks that read this took it to the table............it's the nutz.
Thanks for the tip Keebie.
John
Tor Lowry teaches it. He teaches a pendulum, a punch and a slip. The punch he recommends for bar tables and times when your "big table" full stroke isn't working. Most of his stuff is scattered on youtube or you can buy his cd's.