Questions about instructors

7forlife said:

Now there is good reasons to lead to a possible cause for my lack of knowledge but i'lll skip that and get right to the point.

Why is that if instructors are soooo good at what they do and have all these qualities that so many people value i.e. fundaments and all that, then why is it that you "well I" don't see then in tourneys bringing the pain and being a better ad for themselves? or even why haven't I heard of them a few years back (in case anyone wants to say that they don't play anymore) doing the same.

There is always new of a player gone coach or announcer in other sports but I have no knowledge of this in pool, of course with the very very few exceptions. Car companies started off racing to better show what there production cars can do in order to boost sales.

can someone shed some light on this matter for me please, and for the love of _____ forum police and critics please stay of this one with your negative comments and what about C.J or T. Robles or any other known person. I feel that I am asking a good question and would rather read sensible replies and not have to filter through yours.

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One theory I have on this is that most of the guys who are knee deep in action have their minds wrapped around just that ACTION! They need to keep that mindset and therefore to take time to teach would not be beneficial in their eyes(most prob see it this way not all). I do however think that for the student to respect the teacher enough to actually hear what he/she is saying and do what they say to do it helps to k ow that person can in fact do what they ask of you. And or have some accomplishments of their own. One of the best teachers of the game that I know isn't a world champion but you better believe you have to be world class to beat him when he's playing.

For the same reason college business professors aren't millionaires. :smile:

HIS references are hard to top. . .

I'm not certain now that he's relocated to North Carolina, but when he lived in Florida Ray Martin was offering priivate instruction in his home for $50 per hour.
BCA hall of famer
2 time world straight pool champion
literally wrote the book(s) on aiming and strategy

A trip to North Carolina and a weekend with Ray will cost less and improve your game more than almost any of the seminars out there, just because of the 1-on-1 undivided attention you'll receive.

(I got my training from Ray the old-fashioned way ~ by losing game after game to him at Clifton billiards back in the 80s) (Ray got more of my rent money than my landlord ever did)

This is a good question 7, and one that is often talked about around pool rooms. Probably the most common comments you will here is if he can't beat (insert accomplished players name here) then what can he teach me?

I think there are a few reasons some great instructors aren't at the top of the best players lists.

For one, it is a different skill set. Teaching is not an easy task. You have to not only know what to look for, but you have to be able to get the message across. This often means being able to say or demonstrate the same thing in several different ways as people learn and understand in different ways. There really are not that many great players that are also great teachers for this reason. In fact, I would say some of the best players don't understand what they are doing, they just do it. And in other cases what they think they are doing is not what they are actually doing at all. This applies to everyone and is a reason that video during a lesson is so critical. A lot of people don't believe they are doing things until you show them on tape.

In some ways you can say there are things that go into a champion that can't be taught. I am not talking about mechanics or game theory. I am talking about the ability to execute under pressure among other things.

Instructors that are busy at all do not have the time to be top of the heap players. To be a champion not only do you have to have time to play and practice. You MUST be "under the gun" so to speak a great deal of time. A player can do all the drills he wants to, and yes they will help make him a better player, but if he is never in pressure situations he will not hold up as well as someone that is.

I do agree that to be taken seriously as an instructor you should be able to play at a certain level. But I don't think you have to be a "Pro" player to be an great teacher. I have studied this game for many years, have gone through the BCA teaching program, and have spent some time teaching. I got away from it for several reasons. But I can tell you that I have helped one of my friends improve different aspects of his game even though he was already a far better player than I was.

Again, great question and I look forward to reading some of the other responses.

Woody

woody_968 said:

This is a good question 7, and one that is often talked about around pool rooms. Probably the most common comments you will here is if he can't beat (insert accomplished players name here) then what can he teach me?

I think there are a few reasons some great instructors aren't at the top of the best players lists.

For one, it is a different skill set. Teaching is not an easy task. You have to not only know what to look for, but you have to be able to get the message across. This often means being able to say or demonstrate the same thing in several different ways as people learn and understand in different ways. There really are not that many great players that are also great teachers for this reason. In fact, I would say some of the best players don't understand what they are doing, they just do it. And in other cases what they think they are doing is not what they are actually doing at all. This applies to everyone and is a reason that video during a lesson is so critical. A lot of people don't believe they are doing things until you show them on tape.

In some ways you can say there are things that go into a champion that can't be taught. I am not talking about mechanics or game theory. I am talking about the ability to execute under pressure among other things.

Instructors that are busy at all do not have the time to be top of the heap players. To be a champion not only do you have to have time to play and practice. You MUST be "under the gun" so to speak a great deal of time. A player can do all the drills he wants to, and yes they will help make him a better player, but if he is never in pressure situations he will not hold up as well as someone that is.

I do agree that to be taken seriously as an instructor you should be able to play at a certain level. But I don't think you have to be a "Pro" player to be an great teacher. I have studied this game for many years, have gone through the BCA teaching program, and have spent some time teaching. I got away from it for several reasons. But I can tell you that I have helped one of my friends improve different aspects of his game even though he was already a far better player than I was.

Again, great question and I look forward to reading some of the other responses.

Woody

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What he said.

7forlife said:

Why is that if instructors are soooo good at what they do and have all these qualities that so many people value i.e. fundaments and all that, then why is it that you "well I" don't see then in tourneys bringing the pain and being a better ad for themselves? or even why haven't I heard of them a few years back (in case anyone wants to say that they don't play anymore) doing the same.

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Well i have always heard that there are those who can do, but cant teach and those who can teach, but cant do.
Thats kind of over simplifying it somewhat i guess but its pretty close. There are hitting and pitching coaches in Baseball who were never stellar performers but they know how it can be done and know how to translate it to others.
Some people just have the eye to spot improvements or weaknesses, why they cant do it themselves at that high level is a very good question.

I believe a instructor who's top speed was a high B level, can teach someone to get to a high B level, but I think they would be the wrong instructor to teach someone at a high B level, to get to a high A level or higher.. I just think it would be hard to teach a level you never played at. I know you will hear, well, so and so taught a certain golfer and he never played like that. Well, the fact is most golf instructors are or were scratch golfers or better, and they are mostly teaching the swing. Big difference. Its true, some good players can't teach, but its also a myth that most good players can't teach.

The same reason Butch Harmon, David Leadbetter, Hank Haney, Jim Flick, et al have not won countless major championship.s

Maybe this article will help you understand the difference between a teacher and a player. It applies to most professions.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Who_Is_A_Teacher.htm

Most teachers can play better than the average player because they have spent years learning their subject area. However, they are not motivated to compete. In my own area (forensic psychology) there were many who made much more money than I did in the application of clinical principles. None-the-less when they had a difficult question they would be at my university lab seeking answers from my colleagues where we lived on the cutting edge of knowledge.

Many of the scientist / teacher / practitioners that I worked with had turned down high paying jobs in the private sector to remain in the university where the motivation is to learn and teach. It an occupation unto itself.

The best way I have heard the joke told is

Those who can do.
Those who can't teach.
Those who can't teach, teach teachers (college professors).

With all that said, a retired player can often be an excellent teacher. It depends on their ego and the reasons for teaching. There are many excellent teachers who are no longer playing on the national scene.

backplaying said:

I believe a instructor who's top speed was a high B level, can teach someone to get to a high B level, but I think they would be the wrong instructor to teach someone at a high B level, to get to a high A level or higher.. I just think it would be hard to teach a level you never played at. I know you will hear, well, so and so taught a certain golfer and he never played like that. Well, the fact is most golf instructors are or were scratch golfers or better, and they are mostly teaching the swing. Big difference. Its true, some good players can't teach, but its also a myth that most good players can't teach.

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I will chime in, being a "new" instructor this year. I would have agreed with you until I got my certification in January. I had many people asking me to teach them (and their kids), so I figured hey you know what... I am going to get a formal lesson so I could make sure what I was telling them was correct - because true enough I could get them to a certain level, but was I also causing them to be limited by my own ability?

Now, I know exactly what to look for in a player. I know how to tell them to fix what they are doing to cause inconsistency. Once consistent, then competition is the method to hone the skills developed. I can't help you aim, I can't help you cope with pressure, and I can't help your hand-eye coordination.

So why a teacher instead of a super strong player? They don't know how to convey. They likely never thought of it if they are a natural. Or they have become so good at overcoming bad habits that if they taught anyone, it would be detrimental.

I can say this, anyone who has taken a lesson would not think their instructors ability level impedes their future. Take a lesson, from anyone to find out more about yourself as a player. I am so glad I did, because now I know what to work on to really improve. Before I really didn't understand why I was stuck on a plateau.

Not a great player

7forlife said:

Now there is good reasons to lead to a possible cause for my lack of knowledge but i'lll skip that and get right to the point.

Why is that if instructors are soooo good at what they do and have all these qualities that so many people value i.e. fundaments and all that, then why is it that you "well I" don't see then in tourneys bringing the pain and being a better ad for themselves? or even why haven't I heard of them a few years back (in case anyone wants to say that they don't play anymore) doing the same.

There is always new of a player gone coach or announcer in other sports but I have no knowledge of this in pool, of course with the very very few exceptions. Car companies started off racing to better show what there production cars can do in order to boost sales.

can someone shed some light on this matter for me please, and for the love of _____ forum police and critics please stay of this one with your negative comments and what about C.J or T. Robles or any other known person. I feel that I am asking a good question and would rather read sensible replies and not have to filter through yours.

Click to expand...

Speaking for myself only.

I've never considered myself a great player. My father introduced me to bowling and pool in 1955. I was a bit of a natural at pool, and not so much at bowling, but I was more attracted to the latter than the former. Bowling was huge back then, and my sports idols were Don Carter, Ray Bluth, Dick Weber, Ned Day and Andy Varipapa. The league and tournament bowling results were published daily in the local newspapers, while pool was not even considered a sport. I had visions of becoming a pro bowler and had the physical skills to do so. By 1967 I held most of the scoring records in southwest Wisconsin, and I played pool more as a hobby. I became a Certified Bowling Instructor in 1958, while still in high school, and coached junior leagues on and off for a decade or so.

But my best years bowling netted me a very small amount of cash, - about $1K in my record-setting year. The following year I made over $4 K playing on a bar table with a cue off the wall, so I began putting a little more time into pool. But I didn't take pool seriously until after my retirement from bowling in '73. That retirement came from frustration at the $$ potential, a drinking problem and a serious disagreement with a league director.

I managed a pool hall briefly in 1965, and began teaching the basics there. I also organized the first pool league in west Wisconsin in 1966, which I directed for three seasons, till I took a job in another town. This freed me up to put together some monster teams in the '70s and '80s. My teams won two VNEA Minnesota State team titles, and one of those teams won the VNEA North American Title in '86, though I sat out that season because of some legal problems.

Between 1970 and 2012, I managed to win League MVP 43 times, and was City Singles champ five times. In '87, I moved to the DC area for a job, and retired for two years. Began playing again when asked to join an APA 8-ball team. Because of my previous success (rated a "master" player in the VNEA), the APA made me a 7 "for life" after playing my first match in two innings. The next year I left the APA (didn't care for the rules) and joined a BCA team that took 3rd in Vegas in '92, when I took 5th in the Singles, and became a BCA Certified Instructor. The BCA had approached me, as I had a reputation as a championship team coach.

I was house "pro" at two different places, including the beautiful new Champion Billiards in Laurel, MD, which closed not long after I left. After some of my best years, I retired again after having my cues stolen in '95, and moved to Florida.

Beginning again in 2000, I played in several local leagues, and tried several times to organize a BCA league and then an ACS league, with no success. Played APA for a few disappointing seasons and retired again in 2010.

I've never won a pro tournament. I've never beaten any pros out of more than a few bucks, although I came out money ahead every year I played from 1960 through 2009. I wrote a column briefly for Inside Pool mag, and then as a "Guest Instructor" for Pool & Billiard, who named me one of their "Top 20" instructors in '09. My "specialties" are cue ball control and strategy.

After some serious health problems beginning in 2002, my game has dropped off, though I have continued to improve my teaching skills. At this time, I'm not even one of the top players in Gainesville. I absolutely have to avoid cigarette smoke, so I barely play at all...there are very few non-smoking pool halls in Florida.
When I teach, it has to be early in the day, before the venues get smokey. This also prevents me from competing in tournaments. I can live with this because I have other interests. I garden, read voraciously, and have written eight books, three of which are currently in print.

So I'm definitely one of those instructors of whom people say, "He's not that good, why get lessons from him? I'd love to tell them about my health problems, my age (people don't believe I'm almost 71), and my rather unlucky employment experience, but I try to refrain from that. Now I play very little other than when giving lessons. And I haven't run more than three or four racks in years. But I still love to teach; I get great pleasure from helping others.

Tramp Steamer said:

For the same reason college business professors aren't millionaires. :smile:

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Some of them are.

Joe Tucker and Mark Wilson are both instructors that can play at a pretty high level. JMO!

JoeW said:

Maybe this article will help you understand the difference between a teacher and a player. It applies to most professions.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Who_Is_A_Teacher.htm

Most teachers can play better than the average player because they have spent years learning their subject area. However, they are not motivated to compete. In my own area (forensic psychology) there were many who made much more money than I did in the application of clinical principles. None-the-less when they had a difficult question they would be at my university lab seeking answers from my colleagues where we lived on the cutting edge of knowledge.

Many of the scientist / teacher / practitioners that I worked with had turned down high paying jobs in the private sector to remain in the university where the motivation is to learn and teach. It an occupation unto itself.

The best way I have heard the joke told is

Those who can do.
Those who can't teach.
Those who can't teach, teach teachers (college professors).

With all that said, a retired player can often be an excellent teacher. It depends on their ego and the reasons for teaching. There are many excellent teachers who are no longer playing on the national scene.

Click to expand...

I don't think that saying is always true. Some just get sick of doing something for a living and in some professions you can get paid more for being an instructor, or paid less for knowing more. Look at managers, none of the IT managers I have had could solve issues nearly as well as I can, yet they get paid more. Playing with spreadsheets and budgets for some reason is more valuable than actually doing stuff.

Donny --- you said it BEST --- that you still love to teach. That's the difference. Passion to teach is different than a passion to play. Great great résumé, Donny!

Some instructors play at pro level, some don't. All you need to do is turn on the TV and you will see the same thing in every pro sport across the board. How many coaches are half the size of the athletes? Many never played at the top level, but they're great coaches. Bill Parcells.....never played in the NFL. Jeff Van Gundy, basketball coach, never played in the NBA. Kevin Long, batting instructor for the NY Yankees....never played in MLB.

The true question is not who would win in a match, but who can teach others more effectively.

Joe W,

I don't want to take anything away from professional instructors and I don't want to compare their instruction to that of a top pro. I just think you are mistaken when you say that some pros are naturals who can't teach, or that some would even be detrimental.

I am curious, suppose you were fortunate enough to travel with a world class player and your action directly affected his pocketbook. You can pick any top player you want when considering this question, he could have fundamentals that are far from preferential. Do you honestly believe that this pro would not be able to teach you at least a little and possibly a lot on every aspect of the game, mechanics, knowledge, the mental game, all of it?