Why English
- Thread starter kaznj
- Start date
It's actually not a pool term, but instead a billiards term. Danny DiLiberto has touched, during his commentary, on the fact that the first billiard players that effectively utilized sidespin were the English players, so that others began to refer to sidespin as English. Apparently, the term hasn't caught on everywhere, but it caught on in pool in any circles.
think it came from the french because the english were supposedly the first to use leather tips, enabling them to use sidespin
longhorns2...Nope, it was the other way around. The leather tip was invented by a captain in the French military...Francois Mingaud. He invented it while he was being incarcerated by the French king. When Mingaud got out, he went to England, picked up a piece of calcium carbonate (think White Cliffs of Dover), rubbed it on his new tip, and then envisioned, practiced and mastered the use of draw, follow, sidespin and masse. There are historical drawings of the shots he figured out how to do. He went on to entertain all the royalty in Europe for years.
Scott Lee ~ amateur pool historian
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee ~ amateur pool historian
http://poolknowledge.com
I think that no one knows for sure.
The best reference for billiard-related words, their origins and meanings, is Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards." The earliest example found of the word "English" to mean side spin was in the New York Times in 1873. Shamos points out that the use of side spin was documented in 1806 which pre-dated the invention of the tip by Mingaud (about 1818). Chalk was also used before tips were invented.
Shamos speculates that the usage came about because English visitors introduced side spin. There is a long time between the first use of side spin along with universal use of tips and the first recorded use of "English" to mean side. I've also seen a theory that "english" somehow transmogrified from "angled".
Have you ever asked for a Kleenex, but recieved a generic tissue instead? Have you ever used a copy machine that wasn't a Zerox? How about I'll have a Coke, but received a different brand of soda?
All of these are brands. What does that have to do with English you may ask? Well, all of the brands above were first in the market place and their brand name became synonymous with the product. The same for the word English in the since that we are using it. The English players were the first to develop side-spin with a leather tip, so the term stuck.
That it folks. Nothing more to it.
All of these are brands. What does that have to do with English you may ask? Well, all of the brands above were first in the market place and their brand name became synonymous with the product. The same for the word English in the since that we are using it. The English players were the first to develop side-spin with a leather tip, so the term stuck.
That it folks. Nothing more to it.
Except that's not what actually happened.
Please enlighten me then Bob.
He already did, in the post directly before your one
Xerox
" The technique was originally called electrophotography. It was later renamed xerography—from the Greek roots ξηρός xeros, "dry" and -γραφία -graphia, "writing"—to emphasize that, unlike reproduction techniques then in use such as cyanotype, this process used no liquid chemicals.
(from wikipedia)
I doubt it. What I really think is that the first people that Americans saw use spin affectively for English. So it stuck, like the names Alabama 8-ball, Boston Pool, French Fries. As others have said, the French invented the spin that we know.
On a related subject, I am fully convinced (and I have a little linguistics background to use as reasoning) that the word massé (masser) is actually a bastardization of the name of the city Marseille (in France). I also took six years of French, and the verb masser initially had nothing to do with billiards or masts or straight up and down actions or hammers.
In Boston, the word massé sounds phonetically equivalent to Marseille. I theorize that the first players that the English saw use extreme side spin were from France (and maybe specifically from Marseille), and shots like that would be “de Marseille.”
I’ve read rebutts to this, none of which make sense. The modern usage of the word massé seemed to all come from billiards (to hammer, to strike from above). The only usage my French teachers knew of the word other than billiard was masser = to massage.
Freddie <~~~ linguistically speaking
Due to my propensity to make very difficult, almost impossible shots under pressure players might occasionally say: “That shot was six.” Same thing.
Of course they dropped the “pack” just because pool players are too lazy to use two syllables where they can get away with one...
You might be right, Freddie, but another possibility is that the word masse comes from masse, French for the noun "mass". The French mathematician Coriolis used this term repeatedly in his 1830's study of billiards, and more specifically, the physics of colliding spheres, so it's possible that this is the source of the term, as what he studies is the effect of applying a mass to a spherical object.
per https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/massé
"History and Etymology for massé
French, from past participle of masser to make a massé shot, from masse sledgehammer, from Middle French mace"
got "mace" in there too (from which, I just learned, is where the flat part of a snooker cue butt allegedly originates)-
Per "The illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards" by Mike Shamos, "The origin of this term is unknown, but it my have developed when English visitors introduced spin in the U.S.in the nineteenth century."
Lou Figueroa
Massé is french. The french billiard players use the term exactly as it’s used in the states. Masser=to massage or to knead, if I’m not mistaken. In French billiards the massé shot is often struck softly to score “petits points” in order to keep the balls close. So it’s kinda like you’re massaging the balls lightly, I suppose. Your marseille hypothesis is far fetched, in my opinion, since they don’t call it a marseille shot in France.