Racking At The US BB Championship

stuckart said:

I watched Shane and Jayson Shaw teach a bunch of friends how to soft break and rack the balls to gain an advantage on the 2nd night of 10-ball. They were all laughing like crazy and each were taking turns doing it.

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Did you notice how SVB and Dennis did in the 8 ball event? Can't pattern rack and 12mph break 8ball, thank goodness.

stuckart said:

Griffin said that next year that the 9-ball event will be Rack for your Opponent, using the Magic Rack to prevent the pattern racking. This is a good first step! Although we all know that there are opposite pattern racking to effect your opponent, which might actually make everyone break the balls hard.

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Good

cardiac kid said:

Guys,

To stop pattern racking in its place, why not force all players to use the ultimate pattern rack. One in the front. Two and three second row. Four, nine and five in the third row. Six and seven in the fourth row and eight ball behind. Use the Sardo. Use the Magic Rack. Use whatever you want but EVERY rack is the same ball structure. Players might not like it but hey, what are you going to do if it's the rule! As one poster put it, it might save an hour or two at every event! Might also end the endless arguments .

Lyn

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This isn't a bad idea.

Johnnyt said:

Well they need to come up with some way to stop BS the racking before everyone gets bored watching the same table layout. I'm even thinking of not buying anymore PPV 9 ball matches, and I buy a lot of PPV. Johnnyt

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Well, that's an issue with any preset pattern, even one determined by officials. And this would still come down to a breaking contest with the advantage going to the guy who can find the speed that separates the balls into the open and allows an easier run out.

maybe

Should we get rid of the kickoff in the NFL, or maybe the punter? Come on. the break is part of the game and if someone does it better than others, so be it. The game doesn't shouldn't be changed to make the players equal.

Does everyone draw the ball the same; bank the ball the balls the same; kick the balls the same; etc.... Why should the break be any different?

It is time to quit complaining. I get excited when they make the game look easy. I can sit an watch Shane play for hours when he comes to Fargo Billiards, and not get bored.

Have a referee (neutral racker) rack the balls. End of story. If the players don't like it... Don't play.

I'm sure there are enough players, that wouldn't mind, that it would still have a full field of entrants.

There must always be consequences for negative or unwanted behavior

DAVE_M said:

Have a referee (neutral racker) rack the balls. End of story. If the players don't like it... Don't play.

I'm sure there are enough players, that wouldn't mind, that it would still have a full field of entrants.

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Yes, this is the solution, and I'm sure they will start doing it right away now that it's been presented formally.

I have done many TV events with FOX SPORTS and ESPN and a Referee racked the balls in EVERY MATCH on TV. No problems at all, we rarely even looked at the rack, just trusted the Ref and broke the balls.

The Refs need to be highly respected and have the ability to "correct" anyone that gets out of line. Just like any others, the professional players need to be managed in a sophisticated, yet firm manner.

There must always be consequences for negative or unwanted behavior, AND the players must be told what those guidelines are. This isn't being done these days for some unknown reason.

I agree neutral racker is the best way to go.

Gotaction99 said:

I agree neutral racker is the best way to go.

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Since this thread was started about the USBTC I will use the schedule of it to ask a question.

How do you have a neutral racker on forty tables ? For eight to nine rounds a day for seven days ? First round at 10 AM last round at 10 PM. Thats about 13 hours per day figuring the matches run an hour long.

Its a serious question. If someone can answer it I am sure it will be considered.

Even if you have ten guys each responsible for four tables each with the first round at 10 AM last round at 10 PM. Thats about 13 hours per day figuring the matches run an hour long. Thats 130 man hours per day times seven days equals 910 man hours for the tournament. A 91 hour work week per man. Double the manpower to twenty guys and its still 45.5 hours per man racking balls. What ten or twenty people are going to come rack balls for a week ? If you pay them $10 an hour thats over $9K in expenses not counting hotel rooms or transportation.

If someone can find a real way to get around the logistics and cost issues of having a neutral racker for everyone in the USBTC I would bet Mark would give it a shot. So lets brainstorm a little.

Volunteers won't work. That is a non-starter for numerous reasons the main one being volunteers tend to un-volunteer quickly when they get tired or someone is a d!ck to them because they lost a match.

My thought is maybe local Boy Scout troops or youth groups like high school bands or something who do it as a fund raiser. Tack on money to the registration fee to form a fund of money that the group gets when the tournament is finished. This would have the added benefit of introducing young people to the game. Downside is do you really want a bunch of kids/teenagers running around a tournament and being responsible for racking ? Maybe but I think it would cause a whole new set of issues. Its an interesting possibility though.

So if neutral rackers are the answer how about instead of complaining everyone takes a shot at a positive solution to the problem? All you need is 910 man hours of reliable labor and a way to pay for it.

Well if a neutral racker is not the solution. What is?

Gotaction99 said:

Well if a neutral racker is not the solution. What is?

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I am not saying a neutral racker is not the solution. I am asking if it is the solution then how do you go about implementing it ?

I offered a possible answer that has its own pitfalls. I am curious to hear others ideas.

JCIN said:

I am not saying a neutral racker is not the solution. I am asking if it is the solution then how do you go about implementing it ?

I offered a possible answer that has its own pitfalls. I am curious to hear others ideas.

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Justin,

Care to comment on my solution of the "ultimate" pattern rack? Is it really that far fetched it get dismissed without any discussion? Don't need a neutral racker. Don't need special mechanical racks. Every player gets exactly the same rack. Twist it. Turn it. What ever. Works for nine and ten ball.

Lyn

JCIN said:

My thought is maybe local Boy Scout troops or youth groups like high school bands or something who do it as a fund raiser. Tack on money to the registration fee to form a fund of money that the group gets when the tournament is finished. This would have the added benefit of introducing young people to the game. Downside is do you really want a bunch of kids/teenagers running around a tournament and being responsible for racking ? Maybe but I think it would cause a whole new set of issues. Its an interesting possibility though.

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Even if these kids were Angels and sat there perfectly and were completeyl respectful during the tournament as an adult would be... you still have the same problem you mentioned in this post regarding the volunteer getting yelled at.

Last thing you want is a kid to accidentally slug someone at an important part of the match and then get *****ed at for it. I mean, nothing good will happen there.

Also on a side note... even if the kids were racking perfect on top of being perfect and respectful spectators/contributors to the event (I know, that is a slim chance), there is someone that is gonna be just mad or not like the fact that there are kids there and racking and try to blame one of their own mistakes on the kid.

cardiac kid said:

Guys,

To stop pattern racking in its place, why not force all players to use the ultimate pattern rack. One in the front. Two and three second row. Four, nine and five in the third row. Six and seven in the fourth row and eight ball behind. Use the Sardo. Use the Magic Rack. Use whatever you want but EVERY rack is the same ball structure. Players might not like it but hey, what are you going to do if it's the rule! As one poster put it, it might save an hour or two at every event! Might also end the endless arguments .

Lyn

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Whether it's an easy or difficult pattern, I think if the balls were racked the same every single time, the pros would figure it out.

Boy scouts and high schoolers is a thought, but I think pool's sleazy reputation shoots that down. Imagine when parents hear the name of the event. "US BAR POOL? No way my little Timmy is going to some bar thing!!!"

Maybe we could reasonably reduce the number of neutral rackers needed by making it an option available on request. For every player who flips out after a dry break, there will be players who say "I don't see what the fuss is about. My opponent can rack, I don't care, I trust him". I bet Thorsten doesn't mind if Ralph Souquet racks for him.

To reduce the number of man-hours further, don't have the racker for every round, just the final 4/8/16. They change the set length at some point, why not change the racking requirements too? Maybe volunteer only til the final rounds, then required.

As for your pool of volunteers, I'd put up signup sheets around pool halls within driving distance of the venue. Unfortunately you really want it to be players racking, so they don't have to ask "the ten goes where?" and they know how to check for tilt, gaps, etc.

I do not believe a neutral racker for an event like the USBTC is feasible for all rounds. Maybe starting with the Quarter Finals could work.

Also, what about driving 2 or more balls above the headstring, or even past the side pocket for a legal break? If I recall correctly, there were many times in the SVB/Orcollo matches where the one ball was the only ball driven past the headstring.

I am neither a 9 ball player or a pattern racker, so i don't know the answer to this.

Does breaking from the box help to kill the magic rack pattern racking?

Richardson said:

I am neither a 9 ball player or a pattern racker, so i don't know the answer to this.

Does breaking from the box help to kill the magic rack pattern racking?

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It's not just the rack.. The Magic Rack does a great job of making the balls tight. It's the pattern of the balls being loaded into the rack. Dennis did a GREAT job of loading. Made the wing ball almost every time. Balls spread out on the playing surface nearly the same every rack. He had the two ball at the rear every rack. Couldn't see the other two rear balls (old and decrepit) but they were the same every rack.

We break from the box on the Joss Tour. It did help decrease the number of five and six packs the very best players were doing. Busti put a six on me at Rhode Island Billiards about ten years ago. Nothing will change till the pattern of the balls is regulated. That is why I suggested the "Ultimate" pattern.

Lyn

cardiac kid said:

That is why I suggested the "Ultimate" pattern.

Lyn

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Yes, making one pattern everyone has to use also gets rid of needing neutral rackers.

billiardguy87 said:

Have neutral rackers and it will take care of all the pattern racking an manipulating the rack.

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There is rarely such a thing as a "neutral racker" as anyone at the event would be a pool fan, a player and or friend of one of the players. Then you have the fact that there is zero money to hire regular people to come in off the street and rack the balls the entire time a tournament is going on.

Its just not a viable solution.

fast8ballin said:

There is rarely such a thing as a "neutral racker" as anyone at the event would be a pool fan, a player and or friend of one of the players. Then you have the fact that there is zero money to hire regular people to come in off the street and rack the balls the entire time a tournament is going on.

Its just not a viable solution.

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Plus pros talking in the ear of neutral rackers telling them how to rack anyhow.