Starrett level?

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a GC4 that I need to relocate. I'm thinking about trying to set it up myself, I have plenty of time to kill.

If I buy a Starrett level should I get a 6, 8, or 12 inch level?

Thanks
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a GC4 that I need to relocate. I'm thinking about trying to set it up myself, I have plenty of time to kill.

If I buy a Starrett level should I get a 6, 8, or 12 inch level?

Thanks

6 is good, 8 is better, 12 is very expensive, but more accurate.

A 6 or 8 used on a beam, like a good carpenter level for better span is good.
 

ROB.M

:)
Silver Member
Table

Don't trust a carpenters level to be dead flat or as flat as a Starrett 98, you can use a carpenters level with a machinist level on top to level the frame but I do not suggest it on top of the slate and my reason why is this > I've found that most carpenters levels even with a machined edge are no where near as flat as the bottom of a Starrett 98 level. I've put two different quality/name brand carpenters levels on Starrett true stones and put my Starrett level on top with a piece of notebook paper in between to slide the Starrett level from end to end on the carpenters level on both foot print side.. The smaller the level I put on top the more void I found.
the carpenters levels can not maintain dead flat from end to end...those aluminum levels can really move with climate and use conditions.
SO, be careful my friends' and level responsibly



Rob.M

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6 is good, 8 is better, 12 is very expensive, but more accurate.

A 6 or 8 used on a beam, like a good carpenter level for better span is good.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
6 is good, 8 is better, 12 is very expensive, but more accurate.

A 6 or 8 used on a beam, like a good carpenter level for better span is good.

Don't trust a carpenters level to be dead flat or as flat as a Starrett 98, you can use a carpenters level with a machinist level on top to level the frame but I do not suggest it on top of the slate and my reason why is this > I've found that most carpenters levels even with a machined edge are no where near as flat as the bottom of a Starrett 98 level. I've put two different quality/name brand carpenters levels on Starrett true stones and put my Starrett level on top with a piece of notebook paper in between to slide the Starrett level from end to end on the carpenters level on both foot print side.. The smaller the level I put on top the more void I found.
the carpenters levels can not maintain dead flat from end to end...those aluminum levels can really move with climate and use conditions.
SO, be careful my friends' and level responsibly



Rob.M

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That's exactly what this means Rob,,,,,"A 6 or 8 used on a beam, like a good carpenter level for better span is good"

That said, nothing like slow rolling balls for fine tuning if needed.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just curious. It seems to me that the longer the level the more we're just averaging. On the other hand real short level could drive someone nuts on an old table.

For me it doesn't seem right to put a 12" precision level on top of a $25 carpenters level. Am I wrong? Would like to learn something on this. What's the advantage?

If I had my druthers I'd have a set of 8", 10" & 12" maybe 15" then I could narrow things down when needed, or not. For now I'll just settle on my 12".

BTW there are some quality "carpenters levels" with specs of .0005. Starrett has them under the Exact brand (they bought the company). They offer milled surfaces and probably certs. Just saying. Still 24" seems long.

Not a table mechanic, just a tool nerd.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
That's exactly what this means Rob,,,,,"A 6 or 8 used on a beam, like a good carpenter level for better span is good"

That said, nothing like slow rolling balls for fine tuning if needed.

I think what Rob was saying was that the frames on a carpenter level are not as square as the measuring surface on the Starrett. I can put my Starrett 98-12 on different carpenter levels and get different readings on each level, I can also rotate the carpenter level 180 degrees and get a different reading. The carpenter levels are just nowhere near accurate enough for a machinists level, even just using as a straight edge. To make a short machinists level longer you need a precision straight edge, preferably ground. If you get lucky and test enough different carpenter levels you may get lucky and find a good one. All you need is a flat surface and your machinists level to test them. Put the carpenter level on a flat surface, then put machinists level on top of that, take a reading, rotate carpenter level only 180 degrees and see if you get the same reading on the machinists level. The test will only be as good as your set up accuracy.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think what Rob was saying was that the frames on a carpenter level are not as square as the measuring surface on the Starrett. I can put my Starrett 98-12 on different carpenter levels and get different readings on each level, I can also rotate the carpenter level 180 degrees and get a different reading. The carpenter levels are just nowhere near accurate enough for a machinists level, even just using as a straight edge. To make a short machinists level longer you need a precision straight edge, preferably ground. If you get lucky and test enough different carpenter levels you may get lucky and find a good one. All you need is a flat surface and your machinists level to test them. Put the carpenter level on a flat surface, then put machinists level on top of that, take a reading, rotate carpenter level only 180 degrees and see if you get the same reading on the machinists level. The test will only be as good as your set up accuracy.

OK, then just use a beam of some sort with exactly parallel sides,,, if you can find one. I stated a level as a pretty good beam that is readily available.

Note that a precision level can easily be calibrated to whatever BEAM you choose to use, it just needs to stay fixed after calibrating.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
OK, then just use a beam of some sort with exactly parallel sides,,, if you can find one. I stated a level as a pretty good beam that is readily available.

Note that a precision level can easily be calibrated to whatever BEAM you choose to use, it just needs to stay fixed after calibrating.

Thats all I was trying to point out. Compared to the sensitivity of a machinists level it can be difficult to find a good enough beam level. Just make sure if you use this method that you carefully check the "bar" that you put the machinists level on so you do not get useless readings, garbage in garbage out kinda thing.:)
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It seems to me there's a step missing. The surface should be perfectly level and the machinist level should be calibrated to the surface being used. Then check the beam for parallel edges and accuracy. The main problem with cheap beams is in the vials.

Precision tubes with consistent and precise/accurate curves are also part of the cost of a quality level.
 

PaleHood

New member
Have anyone try to leveling with optical levelling
9adccfcf87d736fcbe00d8513f54aac9.jpg
 

ROB.M

:)
Silver Member
Post

Only when cutting slate slabs from the quarry would I need a optical level..
A machinist level is ground much more flat than most slate.
Starrett only uses high quality vials that are ground and graduated to tight specs.
You'll find that there are 101 ways to achieve level/flat..how you get there is on you... But there is a standard system being implemented that we've found to work flawlessly time and time again using one or several Starrett model 98 levels.


Rob.M


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Have anyone try to leveling with optical levelling
9adccfcf87d736fcbe00d8513f54aac9.jpg
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
If I made a living setting up tables I'd but a half dozen good machinist levels to get the job done faster. I do my own table once per decade. Get the center slate close with whatever level you own and then start watching slow rolling balls in different directions and adjust accordingly. Adjust the other slabs by using something long and straight to make them as close to a single plane with that center slate...then start rolling balls again.

If you can slow roll balls and be happy with the roll on bare slate, it will be as good as needed with cloth. Yes, it can be tedious but how the balls roll is all that matters.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I buy a Starrett level should I get a 6, 8, or 12 inch level?

There are Starrett levels, and then there are Starrett levels.

Can't advise on length but you probably want the 98-series, which have ground vials and .005" /ft accuracy (per division)

The 97 series looks the same, but has bent glass vials like a carpenter level, and about the same accuracy; variously reported (on machinist sites) as around .015"/ft/division.

Point being, be careful not to pay 98 prices for a mere 97 someone is trying to palm off.

If you want to drive yourself nuts, get the Starrett 199. No, not really. Good for rescraping machine ways (in concert with a scraped straight edge & surface plate). But the .0005" (1/2 thousandth)/ft /division accuracy means it moves if you breath on it, or walk around the table to the other side, and it is off the scale most of the time, so really difficult to work with outside of machine rebuilding. :smile:

smt
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
you can get an import brand 12 inch for 85 new from the local machine shop tool supplier

dont need to pay hundreds for starretts

the cheap machine shop tools work just as well as the expensive ones
 

ROB.M

:)
Silver Member
There are Starrett levels, and then there are Starrett levels.

Can't advise on length but you probably want the 98-series, which have ground vials and .005" /ft accuracy (per division)

The 97 series looks the same, but has bent glass vials like a carpenter level, and about the same accuracy; variously reported (on machinist sites) as around .015"/ft/division.

Point being, be careful not to pay 98 prices for a mere 97 someone is trying to palm off.

If you want to drive yourself nuts, get the Starrett 199. No, not really. Good for rescraping machine ways (in concert with a scraped straight edge & surface plate). But the .0005" (1/2 thousandth)/ft /division accuracy means it moves if you breath on it, or walk around the table to the other side, and it is off the scale most of the time, so really difficult to work with outside of machine rebuilding. :smile:

smt

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Wait a minute... the 97 series level does not have a bent vial like a carpenters level. The difference between the 97 and 98 series is the vial on the 97 has less sensitivity than a 98 series level because the 98 is a more recent production with newer technology in grinding the vials and shoe of the level to tighter specs.
I can get a 96 or 97 level to be just as accrate as a 98 series by lapping the shoe and installing a 98 series vial into the plug and tube assembly.
The 96 series level only had a single line of either side of the bubble.

I was lucky enough to have learned a lot about the 90’s series starrett level,calibration and repair from a good guy who I made friends with through starrett. RIP Mike Yamamoto. He worked with starrett and at starrett for a long time, mike designed the fixture that starrett uses today to repair the tube and plug assembly when they do in-house level service to replace the vial,he also wrote a book on how to repair dial calipers and indicators.
And thank you to the great people at starrett for all they have done to produce such high quality american made tools.



Hope this helps.

Rob.M
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rob - that is interesting.
In my mid-1960's Starrett catalog the description is just like this page, from an earlier catalog found online:

116376d1409983083-starrett-non-precision-machinists-level-starrett-97-98-levels.jpg


The 97 is described (in both catalogs) as plain vial, the 98 as ground vial.
I started to post some links to Practical Machinist forum with descriptions by people who know, but the threads often de-generate. There's a lot of noise to signal ratio. Sigh. I do think Starrett would probably know best how to list products in their own catalog.

It is possible that the "plain" vial is blown with a shape internally rather than being actually bent. I'm speculating, but that would make it easier to fit to the same or very similar frame. However it would not likely yield a better bubble, not a more consistent bubble (sensitivity of any 2 levels compared), than a bent tube.

I have a 199 which i use for scraping machine way systems, and a Hilger and Watts which is even more sensitive, same app.

Looks like the 97 /98 question might need a bit more research.

That aside, used 97's are only a small percent of the value of a 98; and apparently about 1/3 as sensitive. I don't know enough about pool table set up to know if a 97 is "sensitive enough". There's a lot of user practice that determines outcome using any level. There's also a convenience factor in using just the right sensitivity for a given application, as opposed to using either a level that is too sensitive (my 199 caution previously :) ) or less sensitive than ideal.

smt
 
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