Reading that Mosconi thread on the main page made me think

franko

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I think there is an attitude today, especially among bar table players, that people who don't play the short rack games, can't for some reason. I think it also is prevalent among those who play only 9 ball. I remember a thread in the main forum by a guy who INSISTED that 9 ball was the only game to play to improve one's skill in pool.

I play both straight and 9 ball with some 8 ball. In my opinion 9 ball dictates your next shot and forces you to be able to move the cue ball around the table. This helps my position play in straight pool.

I had the opportunity to see Mosconi play an exhibition when I was 14 yrs. old I remember telling my buddy the same thing many others have mistakenly said after watching him run rack after rack. " all his shots were easy I could have done that "

I watched the YouTube tape of Melling ( my favorite player currently )running 225 and I saw him make some great shots as well as unbelievable break shots. I thought to myself
Mosconi played much better position not needing to make extreme shots. To run 100's on a regular basis and consistently have great shape says an awful lot about how good Willie Mosconi was.
 

john coloccia

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FWIW, I mostly play 14.1 these days, and I find 9 ball to be pretty boring and "easy." It's easy in the sense that if the table is open with no problems, I'm more than not going to run out.

At higher levels than me (and I pretty much feel like I suck) it's a much different game, but most of us are not at a pro level. I feel like a player like me (that sucks) can go head to head with a much better player than me and the final outcome will be something of a toss up.

Could I go head to head with a much MUCH better player? No way. I'd get killed.

That's where I think 9 ball falls short. A crappy me can go head to head with a really decent shot, and the outcome will still be something of a tossup. It's just 9 stupid balls, and then you start over. It really tends to equalize a lot of skill differences.

In 14.1, a player that is just a little better than me will start to pull ahead most of the time, and the longer the race the farther they pull ahead The cream rises to the top in 14.1 when the race is long enough.

I'm not surprised Mosconi didn't really like 9 ball. Until recently, the opening break was the great equalizer because no one could really predict it.
 

ChrisinNC

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FWIW, I mostly play 14.1 these days, and I find 9 ball to be pretty boring and "easy." It's easy in the sense that if the table is open with no problems, I'm more than not going to run out.

At higher levels than me (and I pretty much feel like I suck) it's a much different game, but most of us are not at a pro level. I feel like a player like me (that sucks) can go head to head with a much better player than me and the final outcome will be something of a toss up.

Could I go head to head with a much MUCH better player? No way. I'd get killed.

That's where I think 9 ball falls short. A crappy me can go head to head with a really decent shot, and the outcome will still be something of a tossup. It's just 9 stupid balls, and then you start over. It really tends to equalize a lot of skill differences.

In 14.1, a player that is just a little better than me will start to pull ahead most of the time, and the longer the race the farther they pull ahead The cream rises to the top in 14.1 when the race is long enough.

I'm not surprised Mosconi didn't really like 9 ball. Until recently, the opening break was the great equalizer because no one could really predict it.
If you're playing 14.1 vs players who you can consistently beat as long as you're able to run up to 14 balls whenever they screw up early in the rack, yes, you're playing the wrong players and not challenging yourself. It is possible to play some decent straight pool with no more than 10-14 ball runs, as long as you end your inning with a good safety or virtually no balls left on the table.

However, playing against players who can string racks, and take totally different patterns to running out a rack to maximize their chances of leaving an ideal set-up ball and break ball, is a completely different game. That's the only way you'll improve your 14.1 game.
 

Dan White

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I know for a fact that Mosconi did not like 9 ball but would play it when Road Players came into his town. I was told this by Leroy Kinman who was a very close personal friend of Mosconi's. Leroy told me that Willie always left the Road Players enough money in their pockets to take a bus out of town.... (Leroy who is play by play commentator during the match from Chicago between Mosconi & Jimmy Caras). As for Mosconi's skill level. I do believe that he was the best all around player that has ever lived. He is to the Sport of Pool as Jordan is to basketball, Marciano is to Boxing, Gretzky is to hockey and so on & on. I do not believe anyone can break his high run record and it's been a very long time since he has accomplished it. Too many things go wrong on the table but one never knows. On a side note. I had lunch with Mosconi when I was about 16... He treated me with totally respect and talked to me face to face with kindness.

Great post! Regarding the bold above:

Reproduced without permission (sue me) from Willie's Game (An Autobiography):

I remember one night in Bensinger's we were having a bite of lunch together, and a fairly good journeyman player by the name of Joe Sebastian came up to us and challenged Ponzi to play some nine-ball at fifty-dollars a game...[snipped brief rules to nine-ball]... Ponzi had no interest in playing nine-ball, but the guy kept at him and wouldn't let him eat his lunch. Sebastian had a backer with him and the two of them wouldn't let up. Finally, Andy, who was never more content than when he was eating, turned to me and said, "Willie, why don't you play this guy and shut him up?"

I won the lag for break and began ripping off rack after rack. At the end of each game, the backer peeled off fifty dollars and dropped it on the table. When I had won thirteen straight, the backer said, "That's it, I quit."

"Quit? How can you quit?" Sebastian said. "You haven't seen me shoot yet."


I think Mosconi could hold his own just fine at nine-ball, and then some.
 
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john coloccia

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If you're playing 14.1 vs players who you can consistently beat as long as you're able to run up to 14 balls whenever they screw up early in the rack, yes, you're playing the wrong players and not challenging yourself. It is possible to play some decent straight pool with no more than 10-14 ball runs, as long as you end your inning with a good safety or virtually no balls left on the table.

However, playing against players who can string racks, and take totally different patterns to running out a rack to maximize their chances of leaving an ideal set-up ball and break ball, is a completely different game. That's the only way you'll improve your 14.1 game.

I agree, Chris. My point was that most of us aren't good enough at 9 ball to string together racks. Until you get to that point, the break tends to equalize a wide range of skill levels so I don't find it very interesting from a competition point of view.
 

sjm

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I his later years he played 7, 8, 9 ball and rotation. But he was in his later 60s then.

He was the best shot maker in the game with the most incredible cue control in his time. In his prime, no one could beat him at any game with any level of consistency.

Best position player, yes, but he was not as good a shotmaker as Lassiter.
 

mikemosconi

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For anyone who is interested in the book "Willie's Game" which is Mosconi's autobiography, here is a copy for $10 delivered which is the best price I can recall:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Willies-Ga...904379?hash=item4b60ff7ffb:g:oA8AAOSwWkFclnhY

The next lowest price I can find right now is $25+.

Thank you, Bob, I just bought that book that you referenced, your right, I rarely see it for less than about $40, so this was a bargain! Owe you a beer if we ever meet!
 

Bob Jewett

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Best position player, yes, but he was not as good a shotmaker as Lassiter.
Maybe, but I bet Lassiter missed a lot more hard shots than Mosconi missed during any year they both were playing a lot.
 

sjm

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Mosconi said he beat Lassiter seven consecutive time in Wimpy's home room.

Lou Figueroa

I believe it, too. Willie was a better player, plain and simple, but Lassiter, the greatest nine ball player of that era, was viewed as the better shotmaker, a skill not nearly as important in 14.1 as it was in the "one shot shootout" version of nine ball. Mosconi rarely played nine ball.

Lassiter, whose 14.1 game I saw live on numerous occasions, was a poor pattern player at 14.1, but his shotmaking skills were enough to compensate for it against all but the top few.

Whether we'll ever see anyone play position as well as Mosconi did back in the day is debatable. He was in a class by himself.
 

Bob Jewett

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... Lassiter, whose 14.1 game I saw live on numerous occasions, was a poor pattern player at 14.1, but his shotmaking skills were enough to compensate for it against all but the top few. ...
My impression of his straight pool was that if he had a run of 80, three of the shots would be banks. He was the best at picking seemingly impossible shots out of the rack.
 

sjm

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My impression of his straight pool was that if he had a run of 80, three of the shots would be banks. He was the best at picking seemingly impossible shots out of the rack.

Your memory is serving you well Bob. Yes, he had to make more tough shots than his contemporaries because he got out of line a little more than they did.
 
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