Never going to another Super Billiards Expo.

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
I have no clue what you do but with being in business that long I'm going to assume (and possibly make an ass out of myself) that you were not in the Pool industry.

So how many customers a day did you get trying to get something for nothing from you on a daily basis? Because it is probably upward of 100 at the doors to the expo (or anything other pool event) on any given day.

The OP didn't try to get "something for nothing," (why this myth is sticking in this thread, I don't know).

None of my customers, with possible a few exceptions, tried to get something for nothing. But a few couldn't or didn't follow the "rules" for ordering online, or whatever, and I HELPED THEM GET THROUGH THE PROCESS, so they could get their stuff and be happy. I certainly didn't just say: "YOU figure it out and just follow the instructions you dishonest hack trying to get something for nothing." It's hard enough GETTING customers, but mindlessly and lazily throwing them to the competition is really stupid business.

The (former) customer and the owners can do anything they want, so I hope each is happy with that. That's business in action.



Jeff Livingston
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Nothing was to be given free.

It was about serving a paying customer who proved he had paid but was turned away (!!!) because he didn't follow an exact rule that was meant to keep out the bums, etc. But he had proved he wasn't such a bum, so why NOT let him in and keep him happy.

This thread is but one example of the damage done to the business model. If the owners want that damage, they can stick to their rules and have more of it.

I've been in business for over 36 years now and I know about customer relations and how to ruin those by anal thinking. I made such mistakes and learned from those.



Jeff Livingston

Jeff,

Please check the front page of the Super Billiards Expo website. Note how many years Allen has run this incredible event. What is he doing wrong? He filled a 1024 player Amateur Open. Filled a 384 player Senior Open. Filled a 128 player Super Senior Open. Filled the Women's event. Filled the Junior event. Filled both the Men's and Women's Pro events. Yes, the vendor area was somewhat smaller than other years. Even the TAP event that runs concurrently was overflowing. What the hell is wrong with his business plan? As another poster mentioned, bet you're not in the billiards business!!!!!!

What ever happened to personal accountability?

Lyn
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Jeff,

Please check the front page of the Super Billiards Expo website. Note how many years Allen has run this incredible event. What is he doing wrong? He filled a 1024 player Amateur Open. Filled a 384 player Senior Open. Filled a 128 player Super Senior Open. Filled the Women's event. Filled the Junior event. Filled both the Men's and Women's Pro events. Yes, the vendor area was somewhat smaller than other years. Even the TAP event that runs concurrently was overflowing. What the hell is wrong with his business plan? As another poster mentioned, bet you're not in the billiards business!!!!!!

What ever happened to personal accountability?

Lyn

Nothing is wrong with his plan, but running off good, repeating paying customers might put a dent in it.

I can't believe I'm even having to say this. No wonder pool sucks at its marketing efforts and normal people run from it. wtf is the matter with pool people? They constantly claim they want pool to grow, but then support retarded actions that squelch such growth!

Again, each one can do what he wants, but not without consequences. That's all I'm trying to say here.

I love the expo, even though I've never had the opp to attend it. I think it is one of the premiere things going for the pool world and I wish it all the success it can bring.



Jeff Livingston
 

fish on

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
kids are free! players admissions are included for players, any league players get admission discount , lots of discount opportunities still lots of outs coming in propped up doors there ! A tough business to regulate?
!it was the best pro event ever, wish they had some monitors up if possible ,still got to see best of the best ty SBE credit Alan for promoting our sport the best way he can by giving the future players our kids a chance to come and play for free who would do that today ???
 
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cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Nothing is wrong with his plan, but running off good, repeating paying customers might put a dent in it.

I can't believe I'm even having to say this. No wonder pool sucks at its marketing efforts and normal people run from it. wtf is the matter with pool people? They constantly claim they want pool to grow, but then support retarded actions that squelch such growth!

Jeff,

Made a margarita for a pool room customer a week or so ago. Poured the mixture into the correct serving glass. Placed the glass before the customer. The customer complained that I shorted him because he always has addition beverage in the aluminum mixing cup. I've made him that drink several times before and he never said a word. There is always nothing left but ice. If I made him an additional drink, the room loses money. It would also say I "cheated" him on all the previous drinks I poured for him. What a dilemma! As a good business person, what would you have done?

Lyn
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
Jeff,

Made a margarita for a pool room customer a week or so ago. Poured the mixture into the correct serving glass. Placed the glass before the customer. The customer complained that I shorted him because he always has addition beverage in the aluminum mixing cup. I've made him that drink several times before and he never said a word. There is always nothing left but ice. If I made him an additional drink, the room loses money. It would also say I "cheated" him on all the previous drinks I poured for him. What a dilemma! As a good business person, what would you have done?

Lyn

I think that if the guy has been a good customer over the years you laugh it off and pour it back into the shaker,
a little more ice and bit of a longer pour and you see to it that he has what he's asking for, then ask yourself if it
costs you more to pour a little extra, or more to loose a customer that been a customer for a long time. .

As far as the SBE goes, this badge thing, is a handwritten badge typical? Do you see a lot of them? If they are handwritten,
to me that would say it's temporary or a day pass, something like that.

Sure if you show up to a concert or a baseball game at the gate with no ticket you don't get in, but if you're in the band or a
player in the game I find that you usually do, but the guy at the door was likely just following instructions. Hard to fault the
doorman for being a good doorman. But if these badges are not something that might hang from a lanyard or have a method
to be a little more permanent then it sounds like they should really have an alternative method for identifying full event pass holders or a better method.
 

tim913

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Seems to me like the only complaint is waiting in line to get badges. Maybe they could come up with a better system such as paying online and receiving your badge with a bar code that could be printed and scanned on entry, or scanned from your phone. Wouldn't be hard to do.
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Jeff,

Made a margarita for a pool room customer a week or so ago. Poured the mixture into the correct serving glass. Placed the glass before the customer. The customer complained that I shorted him because he always has addition beverage in the aluminum mixing cup. I've made him that drink several times before and he never said a word. There is always nothing left but ice. If I made him an additional drink, the room loses money. It would also say I "cheated" him on all the previous drinks I poured for him. What a dilemma! As a good business person, what would you have done?

Lyn

I would have asked him what was going on in his life right now. I'd say, "It seems you're a little on the edge today, care to share it?" Or something along those lines, things that humans talk about, etc.

Now, maybe one of your barkeeps cheated you by giving him what was not his to give?

My point, again, is any business that follows its rules to the point of harming the customers had better check their reasons for being in business in the first place. A good business says, "No problem, let me check to be sure your on the list then we'll give you a temp pass until you can retrieve yours." Or something like that, I don't know all the details, of course. Keeping customers is much cheaper than finding new ones. That is part of how it should be done, too, for sure.

I get you all about pool players being bums who want shit for free. I see it far too often. When we were prepping for the State tourney, we rented Valley tables to practice on. I went up to the counter and told them I'm playing and to start my time. I discovered later than several of our group just played without paying. They said to me, "Why did you pay, no one would know?" I said, "Look around here, this place is beautiful, I want it to stay. I've lived without a pool hall and it sucks." I didn't go into the ethics of it or anything at that time, but probably will with each Person involved at some date.

The solving of problems, not the "it's against procedure," is what businesses do, after all.

I've fired customers, btw, in spite of the costs involved to replace them. Sometimes it DOES pay to just let 'em go.



Jeff Livingston
 

philly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They had an unforseen problem with the printer that prints your name and player number which is then attached to your players badge. Stuff happens. Long line for registration because of the printer but the bottom line is if you paid your entry you got into the venue. It was an inconvenience, small stuff, so don't sweat it.

You can vote with your feet next year but I'm betting it will still sell out. I live near the Expo and I do play in it as well as do many of my pool playing buddies. When I am not playing I am in a friend's corner while he plays, at the poolroom in the afternoon watching the pros warm up because nobody bothers them there, or in/watching the action in the poolroom in the evening. Lots of old time woofing.

Kissed my wife goodbye Wednesday morning and spent most of my time playing and being around pool and vendors the rest of the week. I make new friends every year from all over the country.

There were campers in the parking lot from all over. It is a much anticipated event for many. If you don't like it don't go. Can't please everybody but as in most things it's what you make of it.
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
The OP didn't try to get "something for nothing," (why this myth is sticking in this thread, I don't know).

None of my customers, with possible a few exceptions, tried to get something for nothing. But a few couldn't or didn't follow the "rules" for ordering online, or whatever, and I HELPED THEM GET THROUGH THE PROCESS, so they could get their stuff and be happy. I certainly didn't just say: "YOU figure it out and just follow the instructions you dishonest hack trying to get something for nothing." It's hard enough GETTING customers, but mindlessly and lazily throwing them to the competition is really stupid business.

The (former) customer and the owners can do anything they want, so I hope each is happy with that. That's business in action.



Jeff Livingston
Ok, you are not getting where I am going with this.

Since your customer base is not known for ripping people off it is completely understandable working with a few people on occasion to help them get through their issues.

Pool Players are notorious for trying to get something for nothing, and unfortunately, it is safer to treat them all as such. I 100 percent understand that he paid for admission already, but the door guy doesnt 100 percent understand that he didnt just give his badge to someone else and is trying to get in with ID and a receipt so the other guy can get in with the badge.

The OP and pool players in general are more to blame then the Expo staff.
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
They had an unforseen problem with the printer that prints your name and player number which is then attached to your players badge. Stuff happens. Long line for registration because of the printer but the bottom line is if you paid your entry you got into the venue. It was an inconvenience, small stuff, so don't sweat it.

You can vote with your feet next year but I'm betting it will still sell out. I live near the Expo and I do play in it as well as do many of my pool playing buddies. When I am not playing I am in a friend's corner while he plays, at the poolroom in the afternoon watching the pros warm up because nobody bothers them there, or in/watching the action in the poolroom in the evening. Lots of old time woofing.

Kissed my wife goodbye Wednesday morning and spent most of my time playing and being around pool and vendors the rest of the week. I make new friends every year from all over the country.

There were campers in the parking lot from all over. It is a much anticipated event for many. If you don't like it don't go. Can't please everybody but as in most things it's what you make of it.

Yeah Philly. That's the SBE spirit! Never allow one bad happening spoil the entire event. In my best Ahhhhnald voice, I'LL BE BAKK!

Lyn
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... The solving of problems, not the "it's against procedure," is what businesses do, after all. ...
I partly agree with the solving problems part, but the hard part of the business is fixing the procedure. If you don't get the procedure right, you are forever solving single problems.

An example is when I had gas/electric (single company) service turned on at a new place. Gas happened, no record of electricity. The person on the help line was polite and helpful and got the problem solved after about ten minutes, but the real problem was in how the order got lost in the first place and the help-line person had no direct way to deal with that.

In the case of the SBE, I would say that the ticket/pass/entry system could be better. It would probably be a lot of work and maybe money to make it better if it needs to stop nearly all false entries. Is that an investment that Allen wants to make?

In the particular case of the OP, it may be that the person at the gate did not have the power/authority to fix problems. If I'm at the gate and I see that the OP is with his family, and my fellow gate-keeper recognizes the OP, I think I take him off to the side and quietly explain to him that Allen might fire me if he finds out because there are really strict rules, but I'm going to give him a pass. And please don't tell anyone.
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
I would have asked him what was going on in his life right now. I'd say, "It seems you're a little on the edge today, care to share it?" Or something along those lines, things that humans talk about, etc.

Now, maybe one of your barkeeps cheated you by giving him what was not his to give?

My point, again, is any business that follows its rules to the point of harming the customers had better check their reasons for being in business in the first place. A good business says, "No problem, let me check to be sure your on the list then we'll give you a temp pass until you can retrieve yours." Or something like that, I don't know all the details, of course. Keeping customers is much cheaper than finding new ones. That is part of how it should be done, too, for sure.

I get you all about pool players being bums who want shit for free. I see it far too often. When we were prepping for the State tourney, we rented Valley tables to practice on. I went up to the counter and told them I'm playing and to start my time. I discovered later than several of our group just played without paying. They said to me, "Why did you pay, no one would know?" I said, "Look around here, this place is beautiful, I want it to stay. I've lived without a pool hall and it sucks." I didn't go into the ethics of it or anything at that time, but probably will with each Person involved at some date.

The solving of problems, not the "it's against procedure," is what businesses do, after all.

I've fired customers, btw, in spite of the costs involved to replace them. Sometimes it DOES pay to just let 'em go.



Jeff Livingston

Jeff,

I'm not a mixologist. Just help out in the pool room as much as possible. In any way possible. When I'm in the room, I represent the owner and always want to make him and the room look good. Really want to see the room succeed.

Understand your point and I do agree with your viewpoint. There are a few circumstances that warrant taking the room before the customer. Regardless of the decision I make, the owner backs me up.

Incidentally, the customer in question is Asian and sometimes has a problem expressing himself in English. One of his relatives explained the situation to him and everything is good. He even unnecessarily apologized. Hate to walk a customer out the door just as you do. Once in a great while a customer will say we took his unfinished beer off the bar. In nearly every case, we give them another. Specifically because of your points!

Damn, we got to meet!

Lyn
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
if these badges are not something that might hang from a lanyard or have a method to be a little more permanent then it sounds like they should really have an alternative method for identifying full event pass holders or a better method.

Wrap,

Once you show your badge, they put an ink marker on your hand or wrist that will wash off by the next day. Nearly always go back out to the car and store my badge till the next day.

I've been going to SBE for a long, long time. Most everyone working the door knows me by sight and usually by name. Still always show my badge. Never expect them to allow me to pass without it.

In the end, the problem can usually be traced to the world of "untrustworthy" pool players.

Lyn
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
In the particular case of the OP, it may be that the person at the gate did not have the power/authority to fix problems. If I'm at the gate and I see that the OP is with his family, and my fellow gate-keeper recognizes the OP, I think I take him off to the side and quietly explain to him that Allen might fire me if he finds out because there are really strict rules, but I'm going to give him a pass. And please don't tell anyone.

Bingo! Saw it happen yesterday.

Lyn
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Economy of scale.... An undertaking of this size has a huge number of moving pieces. A number of people trusted to make the event run properly. Most of those people have no authority to deviate from the policy, and to try and expect them to is unreasonable. Getting someone with said authority to try and make an exception is also unreasonable, due to the scale and scope of the event.

It's a shame that the OP missed out. I just don't believe that those running the event are wrong in this instance.
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Ok, you are not getting where I am going with this.

Since your customer base is not known for ripping people off it is completely understandable working with a few people on occasion to help them get through their issues.

Pool Players are notorious for trying to get something for nothing, and unfortunately, it is safer to treat them all as such. I 100 percent understand that he paid for admission already, but the door guy doesnt 100 percent understand that he didnt just give his badge to someone else and is trying to get in with ID and a receipt so the other guy can get in with the badge.

The OP and pool players in general are more to blame then the Expo staff.

I don't disagree with you about who is to blame, but again, it's the business's job to solve problems, thus satisfy the customer, or else he leaves. He said he's leaving and that's sad and it seems like it is costly to the business.

Allen, J Lee, Mark Griffin, the Matchroom guy, the apa people, et all, all of those are my heroes in the pool business, as they know how to market it for profit and do it well.



Jeff Livingston
 

Runner

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Seems to me like the only complaint is waiting in line to get badges. Maybe they could come up with a better system such as paying online and receiving your badge with a bar code that could be printed and scanned on entry, or scanned from your phone. Wouldn't be hard to do.

I go to film industry trade shows... you confirm and pay online, they email you your receipt confirmation, and either send you a printable image, or as above, they send you a QR or bar code that they scan at entry, then print it on site. The problem with the latter is the bottleneck with the printing... IMO with SBE, they should just send you a printable image of the badge, and just show ID for entry.
The NAMM music show has sped this process up considerably, scan to print is 5 minutes, tops... the lines are just everyone showing up at the same time.
 
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