Fargo Ratings thoughts

Icon of Sin · Dec 29, 2016

mikepage said:
lol.... I just can't stop thinking of Belgium when I use a Duffel bag or eat Brussels sprouts. Or who can watch a game of Rugby without thinking of that high school in the UK....

Sounds like you've been preparing for this argument.

You might have a good rating system... but the name sounds like it belongs to a league based out of your home town.

...and the things you mentioned are soooooo far removed from there associated items it's absurd. All of these things have had those named for at least a century, hell in 2 of those cases they were from the 1500's.

Let's face it, you have a pool rating system, not the next great vegetable that will be served at dinner tables around the world.

billiardthought · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
Sounds like you've been preparing for this argument.

You might have a good rating system... but the name sounds like it belongs to a league based out of your home town.

...and the things you mentioned are soooooo far removed from there associated items it's absurd. All of these things have had those named for at least a century, hell in 2 of those cases they were from the 1500's.

Let's face it, you have a pool rating system, not the next great vegetable that will be served at dinner tables around the world.

I would like to hear what you think a good name is? And I really recommend you give this your best shot.... As a naming expert I only want to see the best

Icon of Sin · Dec 29, 2016

billiardthought said:
I would like to hear what you think a good name is? And I really recommend you give this your best shot.... As a naming expert I only want to see the best

I never claimed to be a naming expert at all. I'm just saying that the name seems like it applied to something that is proprietary to Fargo and as someone not from Fargo, I would assume people not from Fargo the first thing they thing of is the movie and the accents.

Now like I said, I'm not a naming expert by any sense of the word, but if I was naming something that is related to an activity, I would want the name of it to either be related to said activity or have no meaning at all attached to it. Frankly, I think putting the word "rate" in the name is a great idea, but the first half being named after a town that is no way a hub for pool/billiards is just odd to me. Here are 2 examples of what I am saying:

1. OBcues. To this day I still don't know what OB stands for but I know it is a brand that was created for pool products as that is now what I associate the letters OB with. In the case of Fargo, I still associate it with a town in ND and a very successful and brilliant movie. The letters OB could have no conotation with pool but they also had no connotation with anything else before coming to pool.

2. Not being a naming expert I'm going to come up with one off the top of my head that will help with what I was saying with linking it to said activity. BilliardRate. Now it is definitely not a gem or clever or anything else like that by any means, nor would I ever expect FargoRate to be renamed to this and I'm sure that when you were thinking of names for your rating system that BilliardRate was probably one of the ones you thought off using as it is completely unimaginative and uninventive... however... what I see the name the first thing I thing of is Pool/Billiards and that this thing rates things in that activity, whether it is items, players, whatever...

I'm not bashing your system. I find it interesting really. I just think if you want to be taken seriously all around you are goingto need to come up with a better name. Let's say ESPN were broadcasting pool (I know this is a stretch so far) and they wanted to talk about a players skill... do you think they would be more apt to use a name like "BilliardRate" or "FargoRate" when talking about an official pool player rating system.

I'm a regular poster at Jimbo's forum and I have given him shit for the name of the site there. Traffic is slow there, but with the name JimboArmy, no one thinks of it as a pool website at all.

robsnotes4u · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
Sounds like you've been preparing for this argument.

You might have a good rating system... but the name sounds like it belongs to a league based out of your home town.

...and the things you mentioned are soooooo far removed from there associated items it's absurd. All of these things have had those named for at least a century, hell in 2 of those cases they were from the 1500's.

Let's face it, you have a pool rating system, not the next great vegetable that will be served at dinner tables around the world.

Funny, Fargo isn't Mike's hometown, even though he might consider it now.

I would say it is very effective, as it is brought up here in conversation. Mike is the most intelligent person I know, and then add Steve, Adele just to name a couple of people, a lot of thought went into naming it.

From a branding perspective, Mike is part of a team that owns Fargo Billiards. He has a game called Fargo. Now he has FargoRate.

Sent from my iPad using AzBilliards Forums

jasonlaus · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
I never claimed to be a naming expert at all. I'm just saying that the name seems like it applied to something that is proprietary to Fargo and as someone not from Fargo, I would assume people not from Fargo the first thing they thing of is the movie and the accents.

Now like I said, I'm not a naming expert by any sense of the word, but if I was naming something that is related to an activity, I would want the name of it to either be related to said activity or have no meaning at all attached to it. Frankly, I think putting the word "rate" in the name is a great idea, but the first half being named after a town that is no way a hub for pool/billiards is just odd to me. Here are 2 examples of what I am saying:

1. OBcues. To this day I still don't know what OB stands for but I know it is a brand that was created for pool products as that is now what I associate the letters OB with. In the case of Fargo, I still associate it with a town in ND and a very successful and brilliant movie. The letters OB could have no conotation with pool but they also had no connotation with anything else before coming to pool.

2. Not being a naming expert I'm going to come up with one off the top of my head that will help with what I was saying with linking it to said activity. BilliardRate. Now it is definitely not a gem or clever or anything else like that by any means, nor would I ever expect FargoRate to be renamed to this and I'm sure that when you were thinking of names for your rating system that BilliardRate was probably one of the ones you thought off using as it is completely unimaginative and uninventive... however... what I see the name the first thing I thing of is Pool/Billiards and that this thing rates things in that activity, whether it is items, players, whatever...

I'm not bashing your system. I find it interesting really. I just think if you want to be taken seriously all around you are goingto need to come up with a better name. Let's say ESPN were broadcasting pool (I know this is a stretch so far) and they wanted to talk about a players skill... do you think they would be more apt to use a name like "BilliardRate" or "FargoRate" when talking about an official pool player rating system.

I'm a regular poster at Jimbo's forum and I have given him shit for the name of the site there. Traffic is slow there, but with the name JimboArmy, no one thinks of it as a pool website at all.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe this rating system was to be used in the Fargo area and not worldwide?
Not saying that's the case(I don't know), or maybe the inventors last, first, or nickname was Fargo?

Maybe Mike isn't a "naming" expert either like the rest of us.

Jason

Icon of Sin · Dec 29, 2016

robsnotes4u said:
Funny, Fargo isn't Mike's hometown, even though he might consider it now.

I would say it is very effective, as it is brought up here in conversation. Mike is the most intelligent person I know, and then add Steve, Adele just to name a couple of people, a lot of thought went into naming it.

From a branding perspective, Mike is part of a team that owns Fargo Billiards. He has a game called Fargo. Now he has FargoRate.

Sent from my iPad using AzBilliards Forums

Sorry I dont know Mike's history and where he is from.

I'm not saying he isn't a smart person. His system is a testament to his brilliance really. I'm sure he is a much smarter person then myself.

As far as naming the poolhall "Fargo Billiards"... well it's in Fargo... so there's that.

I've been shooting pool for almost 20 years now and have never played the game Fargo. I'm sure it is probably fun and I'm not opposed to trying it.

Icon of Sin · Dec 29, 2016

jasonlaus said:
Did it ever occur to you that maybe this rating system was to be used in the Fargo area and not worldwide?
Not saying that's the case(I don't know), or maybe the inventors last, first, or nickname was Fargo?

Maybe Mike isn't a "naming" expert either like the rest of us.

The crap people complain about......
Jason

It did occur to me Jason. I even mentioned it in a previous post that it sounds like something that would be used in Fargo.

Did not occur to me that it was his name or anything like that because it's common AZ knowledge that his name isn't Fargo... maybe that's his nickname. I don't know him well enough. If my nickname was "Baltimore" Im sure as hell not going to name anything that I want to be a "standard" for an activity that the only thing it has to do with said town is that some people there play it.

I'm not complaining about it. I was just saying that I think the name could be better, especially if they want it to be a standard it the pool player rating world. In the grand scheme of things I dont give a shit what he calls it, was just thinking it might catch on a little better with a different name. I'm just a hack that doesn't have a Fargo rating or any other pool rating for that matter and probably never will.

Off topic... are you still in my neck of the woods? You ever make it down to Triple Nines? Holidays screwed up my already sporadic pool playing schedule and havent been to the tourney there in a while.

billiardthought · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
It did occur to me Jason. I even mentioned it in a previous post that it sounds like something that would be used in Fargo.

Did not occur to me that it was his name or anything like that because it's common AZ knowledge that his name isn't Fargo... maybe that's his nickname. I don't know him well enough. If my nickname was "Baltimore" Im sure as hell not going to name anything that I want to be a "standard" for an activity that the only thing it has to do with said town is that some people there play it.

I'm not complaining about it. I was just saying that I think the name could be better, especially if they want it to be a standard it the pool player rating world. In the grand scheme of things I dont give a shit what he calls it, was just thinking it might catch on a little better with a different name. I'm just a hack that doesn't have a Fargo rating or any other pool rating for that matter and probably never will.

Off topic... are you still in my neck of the woods? You ever make it down to Triple Nines? Holidays screwed up my already sporadic pool playing schedule and havent been to the tourney there in a while.

Ore-ida potatoes is literally shortened from Oregon-Idaho. What kind of name is Windex? Nabisco - National Biscuit Company. And then let's get to the weird ones - Chevrolet. Say it slow. Exxon-Mobil. Don't get me started on Law firms. Those unimaginative dbags only use their last names - Williams Hammertooth and Cooch.

I don't think any of these companies need to hire a forum participant to get them a real name. They sell a product and the product worked. It's like me saying your posts would probably be taken more seriously if your username wasn't "Icon Of Sin". No. It's the quality of your posts that are judged. Just like if Mike doesn't produce quality ratings, his product will probably go into retirement.

Also OB are the initials of the two creators founders whatever of OB - Owens Bunnell I believe. They could have done a lot better......

Icon of Sin · Dec 29, 2016

billiardthought said:
Ore-ida potatoes is literally shortened from Oregon-Idaho. What kind of name is Windex? Nabisco - National Biscuit Company. And then let's get to the weird ones - Chevrolet. Say it slow. Exxon-Mobil. Don't get me started on Law firms. Those unimaginative dbags only use their last names - Williams Hammertooth and Cooch.

I don't think any of these companies need to hire a forum participant to get them a real name. They sell a product and the product worked. It's like me saying your posts would probably be taken more seriously if your username wasn't "Icon Of Sin". No. It's the quality of your posts that are judged. Just like if Mike doesn't produce quality ratings, his product will probably go into retirement.

Also OB are the initials of the two creators founders whatever of OB - Owens Bunnell I believe. They could have done a lot better......

All of your examples in your first paragraph are just proving my point when I said name it something that has no associations at all. MPRate or PageRate would have even been much better names in my opinion.

I really don't care how my posts are taken, whether serious or in jest. Most of my posts are usually sarcastic. These last few were not. I'm just a little fish in a really big pond. I understand that my opinion doesn't matter and nor should it. Just felt like expressing thinking that others might agree. Not saying I'm right and I'm not saying I was trying to help. I was simply "just sayin..."

I respectfully concede the argument as I don't want any trouble. I understand that people like the rating system because it is a good rating system, I never said it wasnt.

jasonlaus · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
It did occur to me Jason. I even mentioned it in a previous post that it sounds like something that would be used in Fargo.

Did not occur to me that it was his name or anything like that because it's common AZ knowledge that his name isn't Fargo... maybe that's his nickname. I don't know him well enough. If my nickname was "Baltimore" Im sure as hell not going to name anything that I want to be a "standard" for an activity that the only thing it has to do with said town is that some people there play it.

I'm not complaining about it. I was just saying that I think the name could be better, especially if they want it to be a standard it the pool player rating world. In the grand scheme of things I dont give a shit what he calls it, was just thinking it might catch on a little better with a different name. I'm just a hack that doesn't have a Fargo rating or any other pool rating for that matter and probably never will.

Off topic... are you still in my neck of the woods? You ever make it down to Triple Nines? Holidays screwed up my already sporadic pool playing schedule and havent been to the tourney there in a while.

Yeah I've stopped in a few times, not for the tourney though, just hitting some balls into the rails

Might get over there today or tomorrow....maybe

I'll be leaving in a few day for about 4 months - work

The name Fargorate has kinda grown on me since the first time I saw it, kinda like it now, and couldn't really imagine it being called anything else lol.

There are a few products I will never try because of the name or their commercials, Mentos comes to mind, also Skittles, cause of that nasty commercial.

So, you are correct, some people won't like the name and will "hate/dislike" the product because of it(not saying that's the case with you).

Have a great new year!
Jason

Icon of Sin · Dec 29, 2016

jasonlaus said:
Yeah I've stopped in a few times, not for the tourney though, just hitting some balls into the rails

Might get over there today or tomorrow....maybe

I'll be leaving in a few day for about 4 months - work

The name Fargorate has kinda grown on me since the first time I saw it, kinda like it now, and couldn't really imagine it being called anything else lol.

There are a few products I will never try because of the name or their commercials, Mentos comes to mind, also Skittles, cause of that nasty commercial.

So, you are correct, some people won't like the name and will "hate/dislike" the product because of it(not saying that's the case with you).

Have a great new year!
Jason

Give me a PM when you get back and let's go hit some balls. Triple Nines is about 30mins south of me. I'm more in the area of Top Hat and the Green Room.

robsnotes4u · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
All of your examples in your first paragraph are just proving my point when I said name it something that has no associations at all. MPRate or PageRate would have even been much better names in my opinion.

I really don't care how my posts are taken, whether serious or in jest. Most of my posts are usually sarcastic. These last few were not. I'm just a little fish in a really big pond. I understand that my opinion doesn't matter and nor should it. Just felt like expressing thinking that others might agree. Not saying I'm right and I'm not saying I was trying to help. I was simply "just sayin..."

I respectfully concede the argument as I don't want any trouble. I understand that people like the rating system because it is a good rating system, I never said it wasnt.

No association? Fargo Billiards, Fargo, ND

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J Soto · Dec 29, 2016

What is the purpose of fargorate? Is it's sole purpose that pros wont be able to compete in amateur events?

Icon of Sin · Dec 29, 2016

robsnotes4u said:
No association? Fargo Billiards, Fargo, ND

Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

I'm a pool player for almost 20 years and I didn't know there was a Fargo Billiards because I'm on the other side of the country.

And my whole argument about the rating system was against naming it after the town... It already has a huge association with a very successful movie and now popular TV Show. I said that in my first post.

I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".

On a side note after looking it up, it really looks like an incredible pool hall and the website is very well done.

I said in a previous post that I respectfully concede. It should ultimately be called whatever the creator wants it called and if that is FargoRate then so be it.

robsnotes4u · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
I'm a pool player for almost 20 years and I didn't know there was a Fargo Billiards because I'm on the other side of the country.

And my whole argument about the rating system was against naming it after the town... It already has a huge association with a very successful movie and now popular TV Show. I said that in my first post.

I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".

On a side note after looking it up, it really looks like an incredible pool hall and the website is very well done.

I said in a previous post that I respectfully concede. It should ultimately be called whatever the creator wants it called and if that is FargoRate then so be it.

Funny you bring up the movie. I lived in Fargo for twenty five years, just moved. I have talked to people all over on the phone, when I mention Fargo the first thing in the conversation is the movie..

A good laugh, and the big question, "do they really talk like that?"

My answer, is always yes.

A great icebreaker.

Since you love pool you should make a trip to Fargo Billiards, you will not be disappointed

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TCo · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
...

I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".

...

Yet ask 1000 more than casual pool players and 99% will know what you're talking about. That's called branding. Every brand starts somewhere. I think Mike would love it if in the future it became a brand name become generic like Kleenex or q-tips.

We should all be thankful that Mike wasn't in Dubuque... or maybe he should have been... Do Bee Que rating has a ring to it!

mikepage · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
I'm a pool player for almost 20 years and I didn't know there was a Fargo Billiards because I'm on the other side of the country.

And my whole argument about the rating system was against naming it after the town... It already has a huge association with a very successful movie and now popular TV Show. I said that in my first post.

I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".

On a side note after looking it up, it really looks like an incredible pool hall and the website is very well done.

I said in a previous post that I respectfully concede. It should ultimately be called whatever the creator wants it called and if that is FargoRate then so be it.

I am from New York ;-)

The first name for what is now "Fargo Ratings" was INB (InterNational 9-Ball) ratings. That is the name I used in the 2002 Billiards Digest Article in which I described the optimization process and analyzed the World 9-Ball event in Cardiff Wales. (see a snapshot below).

Since then I have thought a lot more about naming. The best "brand" names, imo are ones that are easy to say and easy to remember: GOOGLE, AMEX, NATO, VISA, HONDA. So two syllables with hard consonants are good.

So I long ago moved away from "International 9-Ball" and other names of that Ilk. Naming something that tries to convey expansiveness is a mistake, imo-- Ultimate, Universal, World... these are cheap words. I prefer a simple name and let the idea spread...

jasonlaus · Dec 29, 2016

Icon of Sin said:
Give me a PM when you get back and let's go hit some balls. Triple Nines is about 30mins south of me. I'm more in the area of Top Hat and the Green Room.

I'm in Fells Point, about a block from all the bars/restaraunts
Jason

onepocketron · Dec 29, 2016

How bout this? You have a core team of 5 very strong players on a team. Before league starts (BCA) they pick up 4 more guys on the roster. The 5 core guys are going to Vegas, the 4 they put on the roster before league started are not.

During the league year, the 4 picked up are constantly being rotated in so that only 1 or 2 of the core team plays each week. This allows the core 5 to get less wins, play less games, and keep their ratings at a much lower rate than if they had played like most teams, playing the core of the team most often, and only playing the alternates when needed.

When they go to Vegas, their true speed is much higher than their rating. For instance they may now stay in gold, where if they would have played all year together, their true ratings would have put them into platinum.

The other thing as I understand it, is that none of the scores from the BCA tourney last summer were put into the system. I don't understand why not, as this would truly give you an excellent idea of the true speed of most players. There ain't no sand bagging or alternating lesser players in for this thing.

JoeyM · Dec 29, 2016

If you think this is complicated try the USTA NTRP ratings.

A simple overview: It is pretty close to accurate but I haven't played USTA in many years so some info may not be perfect.

Your rating is published but the dynamic rating is not. The dynamic rating changes with each match. The computer takes both players in a singles match and determines how many games each should win in a set. If you win by a bigger or smaller margin than what the computer thinks the match should be, then your dynamic rating can go up or down. It is highly possible that your dynamic rating can go down even though you won the match because you didn't win by enough of a margin.

In a doubles match, it takes all 4 players into account. Your team could win a match and one players dynamic rating goes up while the teammates dynamic rating goes down.

The dynamic rating is kept secret in an attempt to curb sandbagging and manipulating your overall rating. If you knew you were about to get bumped up, you could throw a match to keep the dynamic from going up and causing the bump up in level.

Sandbagging is rampant in USTA leagues. Some websites can calculate your dynamic rating extremely close. It is also just as easy to make sure your matches almost always go to a third set\tiebreaker.

FargoRate seems to use different algorithms but I see no need for them to be published. Too many people could possibly use that info to figure out what they need to win a match by and not have their rating go up significantly.

JoeyM

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