Something Your Teacher Can Teach You...

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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When you stated "leave the table" I read it as going off the table to the floor. Actually leaving the table. Climbing that ob, growing a pair of wings, and saying "You ain't gonna hit me no mo. I'm outta here, Adios, arrivederci, sayounara, vaarwel, and goodbye."

Oh! Lol! That explains the disconnect. No wings, just a slight hop.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am hitting it pretty softly, so that it hits the rail and bounces out a little bit so that it won't scratch. If I hit it harder it would do like you are writing about. Why would it go along the rail if I'm hitting the one ball directly if not force follow?

Yes, I'm thinking exactly that -- that it wasn't a force follow shot. You definitely needed some speed to execute the shot, but there wasn't a whole lot of top spin going on so it looked like the cb just went into normal roll after the slide wore off. Yes, I think you can execute that shot if the cb hits the ob at the correct angle, which it did.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Yes, I'm thinking exactly that -- that it wasn't a force follow shot. You definitely needed some speed to execute the shot, but there wasn't a whole lot of top spin going on so it looked like the cb just went into normal roll after the slide wore off. Yes, I think you can execute that shot if the cb hits the ob at the correct angle, which it did.

So how much topspin is needed to classify a shot as a "force follow" shot? On a typical follow shot (at soft to medium speeds) the CB hits the OB and then follows its natural rolling path, depending on shot angle. There may be a tiny boost of topspin that helps it along this path, but usually it isn't obvious and we don't see it occur. The inertia of the CB is just enough to keep it rolling in a natural direction.

If we hit the same shot with a medium-firm stroke, there will be noticeable topspin on the CB after it hits the OB. The CB will have more inertia (more rotational force) and will be forced along a more narrow path in relation to a normal rolling path. This of course depends on the angle of the shot -- on thinner cuts the CB retains most of its momentum, which overpowers the rotational torque/spin on the OB. On thicker shots the CB's rotational force overpowers the amount of momentum that doesn't get transferred to the OB. On a more full hit, it doesn't take much speed to force the CB along a more narrow departure path, because nearly all of the momentum was transferred to the OB on impact and the CB''s inertia is now the driving force that keeps it moving. If we hit the shot harder we get more spin, and it's more noticeable.

Anyway, I guess I'm just curious as to when a shot can be classified as a force follow. I mean, anytime the CB is forced off of it's natural departure path (due to it's rotational spin/force/inertia overpowering it's momentum), we have a forced shot -- the CB follows a forced path instead of a natural rolling path. But are we only to consider it a "force follow" if the topspin is so extreme that it causes the CB to dance against the rail a time or two?
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So how much topspin is needed to classify a shot as a "force follow" shot? On a typical follow shot (at soft to medium speeds) the CB hits the OB and then follows its natural rolling path, depending on shot angle. There may be a tiny boost of topspin that helps it along this path, but usually it isn't obvious and we don't see it occur. The inertia of the CB is just enough to keep it rolling in a natural direction.

If we hit the same shot with a medium-firm stroke, there will be noticeable topspin on the CB after it hits the OB. The CB will have more inertia (more rotational force) and will be forced along a more narrow path in relation to a normal rolling path. This of course depends on the angle of the shot -- on thinner cuts the CB retains most of its momentum, which overpowers the rotational torque/spin on the OB. On thicker shots the CB's rotational force overpowers the amount of momentum that doesn't get transferred to the OB. On a more full hit, it doesn't take much speed to force the CB along a more narrow departure path, because nearly all of the momentum was transferred to the OB on impact and the CB''s inertia is now the driving force that keeps it moving. If we hit the shot harder we get more spin, and it's more noticeable.

Anyway, I guess I'm just curious as to when a shot can be classified as a force follow. I mean, anytime the CB is forced off of it's natural departure path (due to it's rotational spin/force/inertia overpowering it's momentum), we have a forced shot -- the CB follows a forced path instead of a natural rolling path. But are we only to consider it a "force follow" if the topspin is so extreme that it causes the CB to dance against the rail a time or two?

Although you're right in that your shot had both force and follow, I think what was originally meant by the term was that both the force and the follow are of an extreme nature to where you can visibly see the effects of both when each aspect kicks-in.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Although you're right in that your shot had both force and follow, I think what was originally meant by the term was that both the force and the follow are of an extreme nature to where you can visibly see the effects of both when each aspect kicks-in.

Yeah, I suppose that's really the only good way to classify follow shots. I mean, the obvious distinction between extreme follow and normal follow is the fact that extreme CB spin/action is quite obvious and easy to see. A normal follow shot, though a certain amount of force is involved, doesn't have that obvious action.

Thanks for the good response. It helped me think of the shot as more of a visual classification rather than physics.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Although you're right in that your shot had both force and follow, I think what was originally meant by the term was that both the force and the follow are of an extreme nature to where you can visibly see the effects of both when each aspect kicks-in.

That is why I have trouble distinguishing between a force follow shot at long distance from any other hard it follow shot. All the effects even out and you end up with a fast rolling cue ball no matter how you started it, Even if you started a hard hit shot with back spin, if it had time to roll long enough it would eventually become a fast full rolling cue ball. It would take longer than 9 feet but the back spin eventually converts to drag then drag to roll then to full roll.

That was why it seemed to me Force Follow was an effort to get to full roll immediately and was mostly valuable for shorter hard hit shots.

I was practicing Tor Lowry's ball pocketing drill on a long pattern. In it he has you hit 10 points on the cue ball. At distance there is no difference in the rebound with what he calls "High Action" (extreme high) versus one tip above center. I asked him why I should practice a shot I would never use since the extra high cuing increased risk of mis hits and unintended spin without gaining any additional forward roll. His reply was that he wanted me to learn to hit exactly where I was aiming on the cue ball, not that he expected a different rebound result.

On shorter shots the hard hit extreme high rebound varied substantially from the partial roll developed with a regular above center shot. Once the distance was great enough all the forces evened out and what was left was high speed full forward roll and the action was the same. That was why I questioned the concept of a Force Follow shot at distance. I think it is exactly the same as any full rolling cue ball at distance.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is why I have trouble distinguishing between a force follow shot at long distance from any other hard it follow shot. All the effects even out and you end up with a fast rolling cue ball no matter how you started it, Even if you started a hard hit shot with back spin, if it had time to roll long enough it would eventually become a fast full rolling cue ball. It would take longer than 9 feet but the back spin eventually converts to drag then drag to roll then to full roll.

That was why it seemed to me Force Follow was an effort to get to full roll immediately and was mostly valuable for shorter hard hit shots.

I was practicing Tor Lowry's ball pocketing drill on a long pattern. In it he has you hit 10 points on the cue ball. At distance there is no difference in the rebound with what he calls "High Action" (extreme high) versus one tip above center. I asked him why I should practice a shot I would never use since the extra high cuing increased risk of mis hits and unintended spin without gaining any additional forward roll. His reply was that he wanted me to learn to hit exactly where I was aiming on the cue ball, not that he expected a different rebound result.

On shorter shots the hard hit extreme high rebound varied substantially from the partial roll developed with a regular above center shot. Once the distance was great enough all the forces evened out and what was left was high speed full forward roll and the action was the same. That was why I questioned the concept of a Force Follow shot at distance. I think it is exactly the same as any full rolling cue ball at distance.

I tend to agree with you that it's rare to feel the need to shoot a force follow shot at a distance. I think there may be a couple of instances that might work but are risky, such as a side of the pack long break shot in 14.1, where you want the force to hit the pack hard and the extreme top spin to drive the cue ball through the pack and separate the balls. But there's a pretty high risk of missing the shot. I've shot that shot before and you have to really commit to it and then accept what happens. If you waver the slightest amount, you'll miss. At that speed, there's practically no margin for error.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, now you have me wondering if you are just trying to be contrary. Earlier, and what I responded to, you were stating that the cb would climb the ob and go off the table. Now, you are saying it will only, maybe, climb a thousandth of an inch. Which you have no evidence of.

As far as the contact point increasing substantially, take a piece of carbon paper and lean it in front of the ob. Shoot it soft, then hard. Observe the results.

How easy is it to stroke a CB with force follow, and the CB never leaves the cloth prior to OB contact?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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How easy is it to stroke a CB with force follow, and the CB never leaves the cloth prior to OB contact?
It is possible but the cue stick has to be angled slightly upward which is hard to do.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
In the still picture posted below, there are 3 balls and the first two must be struck into the same corner pocket where the CB sits. There are a few ways to get the CB back to the zone where the two ball can be made into the same pocket. Most would probably use the low left shot which I show in the first Youtube video: https://youtu.be/VttwGoYOkZQ. But, maybe there are clusters where you determine that shot is not available. In the second Youtube video: https://youtu.be/RfXgGJJdK4o I use force follow to get the same shape. My teacher has hundreds of these force follow shots where he can get shape on the next ball if the obvious shots are not available.. If you know these shots remember there are pool players that have never heard of force follow and I'm hoping they will go find a competent instructor.
 

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SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
In the still picture posted below, there are 3 balls and the first two must be struck into the same corner pocket where the CB sits. There are a few ways to get the CB back to the zone where the two ball can be made into the same pocket. Most would probably use the low left shot which I show in the first Youtube video: https://youtu.be/VttwGoYOkZQ. But, maybe there are clusters where you determine that shot is not available. In the second Youtube video: https://youtu.be/RfXgGJJdK4o I use force follow to get the same shape. My teacher has hundreds of these force follow shots where he can get shape on the next ball if the obvious shots are not available.. If you know these shots remember there are pool players that have never heard of force follow and I'm hoping they will go find a competent instructor.

This is pool 101-1/2, which comes after pool 101.
With 1/2 a brain and a little cue ball knowledge these are routine.

If you have any 3 cushion knowledge these are a gimme.
You could play these with 1 foot on the floor shooting behind your back while playing tiddley winks and get all 3 in the same pocket.

Hundreds of shots? I would love to see just 50.
Its not about the shot, its the stroke, speed, spin, and imagination.
All you need is stroke technique,it's really not that difficult, maybe for a beginner.

Sincerely: SS
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is pool 101-1/2, which comes after pool 101.
With 1/2 a brain and a little cue ball knowledge these are routine.

If you have any 3 cushion knowledge these are a gimme.
You could play these with 1 foot on the floor shooting behind your back while playing tiddley winks and get all 3 in the same pocket.

Hundreds of shots? I would love to see just 50.
Its not about the shot, its the stroke, speed, spin, and imagination.
All you need is stroke technique,it's really not that difficult, maybe for a beginner.

Sincerely: SS

Kind of hard on the guy aren't you? :smile: It is old information to you but new to him. There are a lot of different skill levels here and he is trying to share something he just learned. I hate to discourage anyone from posting. I wish there was more interaction at all levels.

I enjoyed all the interaction on this subject, including his and yours. :grin:
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well done.

In the still picture posted below, there are 3 balls and the first two must be struck into the same corner pocket where the CB sits. There are a few ways to get the CB back to the zone where the two ball can be made into the same pocket. Most would probably use the low left shot which I show in the first Youtube video: https://youtu.be/VttwGoYOkZQ. But, maybe there are clusters where you determine that shot is not available. In the second Youtube video: https://youtu.be/RfXgGJJdK4o I use force follow to get the same shape. My teacher has hundreds of these force follow shots where he can get shape on the next ball if the obvious shots are not available.. If you know these shots remember there are pool players that have never heard of force follow and I'm hoping they will go find a competent instructor.
Even as all wet as I think you and your instructor are about "despising aiming systems", I gotta' admit this is some pretty strong hitting.
If your instructor is teaching you this kind of playing, it looks to me like you're spending your time and money wisely.
If it had of been me, I was thinking powerful 'center ball stun' up the table straight to the opposite short rail and straight back down again.
What you did, never even occurred to me. A little too risky for me...I see too many chances to scratch with that sailing cue ball, resulting in losing my money. I guess that shows where my half-ass game is at. :frown:
Nevertheless, you sure hit those good. I will be glad to compliment you on that.
(I thought they threw you out of here on a 'ban'...I must've been wrong. If they did...glad to see you back).
Stay happy.
:thumbup:
P.Lowenstein
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is pool 101-1/2, which comes after pool 101.
With 1/2 a brain and a little cue ball knowledge these are routine.

If you have any 3 cushion knowledge these are a gimme.
You could play these with 1 foot on the floor shooting behind your back while playing tiddley winks and get all 3 in the same pocket.

Hundreds of shots? I would love to see just 50.
Its not about the shot, its the stroke, speed, spin, and imagination.
All you need is stroke technique,it's really not that difficult, maybe for a beginner.

Sincerely: SS

Could be a beginning shot for you but I'll bet 95% of pool players do not know of the second shot nor can they produce it without working on it.
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could be a beginning shot for you but I'll bet 95% of pool players do not know of the second shot nor can they produce it without working on it.
Have to admit (as much as I hate to do it) I'm in that 95%.
:thumbup:
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Have to admit (as much as I hate to do it) I'm in that 95%.
:thumbup:

I play with high B and low A players and they didn't know it either. I think most pool players think of FF (force follow) as the damaging thing that happens when they want the CB back down the table after canning the ball -in -jaws shot. But as that shot shows, there are a lot of fantastic shots that can work out.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If it had of been me, I was thinking powerful 'center ball stun' up the table straight to the opposite short rail and straight back down again.

Stay happy.
:thumbup:
P.Lowenstein

The trouble with the stun shot is he has purposely set up a shot with not much angle and you have to hit it so hard to stun it up and back it makes the pocket play tiny.

I have a friend who never stuns the ball when I would. He puts a small amount of top then compensates with a small amount of spin to achieve the same result. I don't like that as a normal method of play as it requires too much practice to keep in stroke to be able to accurately execute it. But in situations where it is hard to get the Cue Ball to the rail the top helps with that then the spin counteracts the forward motion and you get the same result as stun. You can hit it that way and achieve the straight up and back shot with a little less power but any shot you do is going to have to be hit harder then you like. It would be nicer to have just a little more angle but the other guy doesn't always leave you what is nice. :eek:
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the still picture posted below, there are 3 balls and the first two must be struck into the same corner pocket where the CB sits. There are a few ways to get the CB back to the zone where the two ball can be made into the same pocket. Most would probably use the low left shot which I show in the first Youtube video: https://youtu.be/VttwGoYOkZQ. But, maybe there are clusters where you determine that shot is not available. In the second Youtube video: https://youtu.be/RfXgGJJdK4o I use force follow to get the same shape. My teacher has hundreds of these force follow shots where he can get shape on the next ball if the obvious shots are not available.. If you know these shots remember there are pool players that have never heard of force follow and I'm hoping they will go find a competent instructor.

They're nice shots but they're not force follow shots.
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good post

The trouble with the stun shot is he has purposely set up a shot with not much angle and you have to hit it so hard to stun it up and back it makes the pocket play tiny.
I have a friend who never stuns the ball when I would. He puts a small amount of top then compensates with a small amount of spin to achieve the same result. I don't like that as a normal method of play as it requires too much practice to keep in stroke to be able to accurately execute it. But in situations where it is hard to get the Cue Ball to the rail the top helps with that then the spin counteracts the forward motion and you get the same result as stun. You can hit it that way and achieve the straight up and back shot with a little less power but any shot you do is going to have to be hit harder then you like. It would be nicer to have just a little more angle but the other guy doesn't always leave you what is nice. :eek:
That's good information.
I will take it to the "chamber of horrors with the nightmarish 4 1/4 pockets" in the morning and work on it.
I'm assuming the 'spin with the top' you're referring to is what we used to call "natural" or "running" spin? God help me, if it's 'reverse'.
(I'm recalling a Grady Matthews shot in one pocket where the reverse spin combined with the top causes the cueball to force out into an arc and then proceed to another location close to the opposite long rail leading into the same pocket)
Please tell me it isn't reverse with the top...please, please, please. *doing his James Brown imitation with the Please Please Please* :)
TY
:thumbup:
 
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