SIDESPIN … Everything You Need to Know
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
The post linked above shows that (at least on the table I used) each 1/3 of maximum english spins the CB one more diamond to the side on a straight crosstable shot.
If you use a ~12.7mm (1/2") tip there's a convenient way to hit exact thirds of maximum spin using "tips" of english:
As shown below, if a "tip" of sideways movement is 1/2 the tip's width, then each "tip" of movement adds another 1/3 of maximum english.
pj
chgo
The tip offset is is determined by the results.
Did I say it wrong?? All strokes are different and therefore all tip placements produced different results.
Are you saying only the contact point makes the difference and technique has is no concern? I highly disagree. It's not that simple.
Lets say you're correct, and the only thing is the contact point. How do you correct for an ingrained line up over the cue looking at the CB.
Need to look beyond theory and allow folks to see reality. Hit here and you will get this result. Foolish
I agree that experience is the most reliable teacher. I think “calibrating” tip placement can help shorten and sharpen that learning process.
pj
chgo
Well sorry to be a critic, I thought the video jumped all over the place, like it didn't have a clear goal. I wasn't sure if it was for an absolute beginner, or a seasoned player. I watched about 75% of it then turned it off.
Here is what I think would make a good spin video (this is unrelated to the video you made, but its a topic I have wanted to see for a while and I don't believe anyone made this video....):
I'd like a a video showing several common shots, especially 9 ball shots, where you are trying to get position to a specific spot on the table. Lets say the super common low outside where you go across the table with the CB after making the OB.
I'd like the camera to show what the hit looks like between tip and CB "from the shooter's perspective", and additionally, what the "overlap" looks like between the CB and OB from the shooters perspective, BEFORE the shot is hit. I could care less for the ghost ball position. That goes out the window in real pool. I want to see what the shot should look like from the aim accounting for all spin effects. I'd also like this information for the exact same shot angle, but with different CB to OB distances, or different speeds. We all know that can change the aim dramatically.
I don't want explanation. I want silence. Show the shot overhead, the desired position and shoot it full speed while in the overhead camera. Then replay the same shot from the camera view that will show the tip/CB overlap, and the CB/OB overlap. Change the speed or distance, and repeat. Show this for 5 common shots. No talking, just showing. I think this would be a great video. IMO
I also think it would be very hard to make due to the camera work required to show these viewpoints.
Here is what I think would make a good spin video (this is unrelated to the video you made, but its a topic I have wanted to see for a while and I don't believe anyone made this video....):
I'd like a a video showing several common shots, especially 9 ball shots, where you are trying to get position to a specific spot on the table. Lets say the super common low outside where you go across the table with the CB after making the OB.
I'd like the camera to show what the hit looks like between tip and CB "from the shooter's perspective", and additionally, what the "overlap" looks like between the CB and OB from the shooters perspective, BEFORE the shot is hit. I could care less for the ghost ball position. That goes out the window in real pool. I want to see what the shot should look like from the aim accounting for all spin effects. I'd also like this information for the exact same shot angle, but with different CB to OB distances, or different speeds. We all know that can change the aim dramatically.
I don't want explanation. I want silence. Show the shot overhead, the desired position and shoot it full speed while in the overhead camera. Then replay the same shot from the camera view that will show the tip/CB overlap, and the CB/OB overlap. Change the speed or distance, and repeat. Show this for 5 common shots. No talking, just showing. I think this would be a great video. IMO
I also think it would be very hard to make due to the camera work required to show these viewpoints.
Building on the last post, you (and others) have many videos explaining the why. And you also have videos combining the why and the how. I think there should be one video on spin and aim that is purely the how. No why whatsoever.
Set up a shot and desired position. Show all the things visible to the shooter from his eye's perspective while in the set position. Then shoot the shot. Thats it. Then repeat that for variations of that shot.
You could have a simple 3 min video called "how to draw across the table" with a few variations.
Another called "how to send white forward two rails" with a few variations.
etc etc.
Set up a shot and desired position. Show all the things visible to the shooter from his eye's perspective while in the set position. Then shoot the shot. Thats it. Then repeat that for variations of that shot.
You could have a simple 3 min video called "how to draw across the table" with a few variations.
Another called "how to send white forward two rails" with a few variations.
etc etc.
I've been meaning to do this for a long time and haven't gotten around to it.
One day, I will.
I think that is the best way to teach pool...from the shooter's perspective.
Pat,
FYI, I added some language to the "tips" of english and percentage spin resource page to better tie together the two images from you that were already there.
As always, excellent contributions!
Thanks again,
Dave
The goal was to cover as many sidespin topics as possible that would be of interest to the most people who watch pool instructional videos (without making the video too long, and without including aim compensation which is already covered in great detail in my other linked videos). I can see why you might think the video "jumped all over the place," but it did follow the structured outline below:
- terminology (0:26)
---- running/reverse/outside/inside (1:10)
---- "tips" of english (2:43)
- CB control examples and other uses for sidespin (3:26)
---- kick with spin (4:30)
---- throw shot (4:45)
---- rail cut shot (4:58)
---- swerve/massé shot (5:15)
- sidespin effects (5:32)
---- drag shot (7:20)
- useful drills (9:02)
---- clock system (9:20)
---- target practice (10:08)
My intent was for it to be of interest to a wide audience (all levels of ability). I think it is appropriate for players who have not yet incorporated sidespin into their game. I also think there are things to learn even by some good players who already use sidespin effectively.
Your desire to critique is obviously much strong than your attention span. :grin-square:
That's unfortunate, because you probably missed the stuff that might have been of the most interest to you. :frown:
Thank you for your suggestions. Some of them sound good in principle (except for the "silent movie" part which I don't agree with for an instructional video), but it would require a lot more work and time, and I honestly don't think the camera views will show everything as well as you might hope. I encourage you to give it a go and post an example. If you can convince me that such an approach adds significant value beyond what I already provide, I will incorporate your approach into future videos.Here is what I think would make a good spin video (this is unrelated to the video you made, but its a topic I have wanted to see for a while and I don't believe anyone made this video....):
I'd like a a video showing several common shots, especially 9 ball shots, where you are trying to get position to a specific spot on the table. Lets say the super common low outside where you go across the table with the CB after making the OB.
I'd like the camera to show what the hit looks like between tip and CB "from the shooter's perspective", and additionally, what the "overlap" looks like between the CB and OB from the shooters perspective, BEFORE the shot is hit. I could care less for the ghost ball position. That goes out the window in real pool. I want to see what the shot should look like from the aim accounting for all spin effects. I'd also like this information for the exact same shot angle, but with different CB to OB distances, or different speeds. We all know that can change the aim dramatically.
I don't want explanation. I want silence. Show the shot overhead, the desired position and shoot it full speed while in the overhead camera. Then replay the same shot from the camera view that will show the tip/CB overlap, and the CB/OB overlap. Change the speed or distance, and repeat. Show this for 5 common shots. No talking, just showing. I think this would be a great video. IMO
Thanks again for your honest and creative input,
Dave
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I do think camera views from above and behind the shooter are very useful at times, and I use many of them on my SAWS video, but showing in video what a shooter sees in 3D with binocular vision while looking down the cue in the set position is not easy to accomplish, IMO. Have you seen attempts with head-mounted cameras? The results are not as useful as one might think (although, they are interesting to watch at first), IMO.
Regardless, I Iook forward to seeing example videos that you and iusedtoberich might post.
Regards,
Dave
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I'm really digging this new "Everything you need to know series". I'm curious as to what's in the pipeline.
I'm really excited about anything. Hoping for possibly, 1) an aiming one, because as a new person there are so many conflicting and passionate views on that topic that it's hard to disseminate the fact from the emotion on both sides. OR 2) Patterns, because I often watch pool on youtube, and try to guess the patterns. Often the announcers know exactly what the pattern is going to be, but I'm guessing the wrong way.
I'm really excited about anything. Hoping for possibly, 1) an aiming one, because as a new person there are so many conflicting and passionate views on that topic that it's hard to disseminate the fact from the emotion on both sides. OR 2) Patterns, because I often watch pool on youtube, and try to guess the patterns. Often the announcers know exactly what the pattern is going to be, but I'm guessing the wrong way.
I'm glad to hear it. I have enjoyed making them too ... and it has been excellent dedicated practice for me.
Here's my current plan for what's up next:
Fouls in Pool ... Everything You Need to Know
Position and Pattern Play Principles ... Everything You Need to Know
Throw ... Everything You Need to Know
Kicks and Banks ... Everything You Need to Know
How and When to Play Safe ... Everything You Need to Know
How to Aim Pool Shots ... Everything You Need to Know
If you or others have input, suggestions, or requests concerning these or other possible topics, please let me know.
That's coming. FYI, in the mean time, I have a good collection of videos and articles dealing with this here:
Aiming Tutorial
How To Aim Pool Shots (HAPS)
aiming systems resource page
That's coming also, but I again already have lots of stuff available on this topic here:
Cue Ball Control, Position Play, and Pattern Play resource page
Catch you later,
Dave
Re-reading your table of contents, I bailed at the beginning of the clock system. So I did watch over 90% of it
Regarding the camera views from the shooter's perspective, I agree, it would be very difficult, and I did mention that. I too have seen some of them with a go-pro on a player's head or cue, and they all sucked. That's why I said it would be very difficult to do. It would probably take someone who knows filming inside and out to figure out a way that looks real and gets the image intended.
Or, another approach, could be diagrams that show the important things from the shooters perspective, mixed with video of what the executed shots look like.
The main takeaway is I've yet to see a video of the "how", and what the "how" truly looks like right before the player pulls the trigger.
I may try for one shot a few views, but I doubt it would look good, and don't hold your breath
I know its a ton of work to do the videos you do, and also a super super steep learning curve to figure out the cameras, editing, etc.. Just when I upload ghost videos or wwyd videos its a lot of work.These all sound awesome. I'll be waiting for them all to come out. The foul one is especially interesting. There is sometimes confusion about what counts as a hit when balls are touching things. What if the cueball is touching another ball? Especially in rotation and it's the lowest ball, does it count as a hit if you hit it from the side, and if it hits another ball before hitting the same ball again is that a foul? What about when balls are frozen to the rail? When a ball jumps off the table, and rolls along the rail, or bounces out of the pocket is that a foul? One time, I was playing and someone broke and the ball bounced up and shattered the pool light bulb, but the cue ball bounced back down and landed on the table. After we picked up the broken glass, we called it a valid break... but was it really? Are things off the table like a wall or the light considered "out" of play?
What does "hit it from the side" mean?
What is "it" in this question? The tip? The cue ball?
What about it?
Finally, a question I can understand...
If the ball comes back onto the playing surface without touching anything but the top of the rail, then it's not a foul. If it touches anything else, like a cube of chalk (or the light), it's a foul.
pj
chgo
I think my newness to the sport is limiting my descriptions as I don't know the best terminology or the best way to describe things. I apologize for the confusion, as I'm certain it's my fault.
I'm talking about when in rotation games, the cueball is frozen to the lowest numbered object ball or when the lowest numbered object ball is frozen to the rail. It seems that many people that I have played have a different opinion of what is a valid hit in these cases, and it's hard to pick out what is a valid hit and what isn't.
I'm talking about when in rotation games, the cueball is frozen to the lowest numbered object ball or when the lowest numbered object ball is frozen to the rail. It seems that many people that I have played have a different opinion of what is a valid hit in these cases, and it's hard to pick out what is a valid hit and what isn't.
I am also looking forward to the "Pool Fouls ... Everything You Need to Know" video. I am actually in the final stages of the planning now, and I hope to do the filming over the next few days. I obviously cannot cover every possible thing that can happen at the table, nor can I cover every detail of every rule (otherwise, the video would be many hours long), but I think I will cover all of the really important stuff and the things of interest to most people.
Regards,
Dave
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