Meucci Myth

MattPoland · Feb 27, 2018

garczar said:
Poolhall lore for sure. Its funny how many have never hit a ball with one but will tell anybody that "boy those muchee's are super whippy pool sticks".

That’s exactly what I’m after with this thread. I’ve believed that for decades. And it has been repeated to me throughout. At this point unless you have a LD Meucci shaft, I’m thinking lore is all that it is. Because ANY 13mm shaft feels like swinging a tree trunk for me any more.

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BC21 · Feb 27, 2018

I had a Meucci cue back in the late 80's and a friend of mine would always say it was the flexy shaft that allowed me get more spin on the cb. I told him it seemed like a stiffer shaft would produce more spin because the tip would not deflect away from the cb as much. Anyway, being fellow engineering students, we came up with a means to test it, or so we thought. We used a 40 inch long 3/8" steel rod with a lepro tip glued on the end. I thought it would prove that a stiffer cue would force the cb straighter in the stroke direction, and therefore allow more spin to be retained, at least more when compared to using a more flexible shaft like my Meucci. Instead, we learned the rigid heavy steel shaft caused so much cb squirt that it was too hard to determine anything about the differences in spin.

So instead of proving or disproving something, we learned something: A stiff, unwavering, heavy shaft causes extreme cb squirt because the shaft does not deflect. This was opposite from what I had thought back then, and several years before anyone heard of low-deflection shafts like Predator's original 314.

Since then I've come to learn that spin is dependent on speed and stroke. Sure, tip softness may come into play because you don't have to hit the cb as hard to get the desired action, but I don't believe the shaft itself plays much of a roll in it.....not even sure the tip does, as I play with a medium hard tip and notice no difference when using a soft-tipped cue, other than mushrooming.

MattPoland · Feb 27, 2018

BC21 said:
I had a Meucci cue back in the late 80's and a friend of mine would always say it was the flexy shaft that allowed me get more spin on the cb. I told him it seemed like a stiffer shaft would produce more spin because the tip would not deflect away from the cb as much. Anyway, being fellow engineering students, we came up with a means to test it, or so we thought. We used a 40 inch long 3/8" steel rod with a lepro tip glued on the end. I thought it would prove that a stiffer cue would force the cb straighter in the stroke direction, and therefore allow more spin to be retained, at least more when compared to using a more flexible shaft like my Meucci. Instead, we learned the rigid heavy steel shaft caused so much cb squirt that it was too hard to determine anything about the differences in spin.

So instead of proving or disproving something, we learned something: A stiff, unwavering, heavy shaft causes extreme cb squirt because the shaft does not deflect. This was opposite from what I had thought back then, and several years before anyone heard of low-deflection shafts like Predator's original 314.

Since then I've come to learn that spin is dependent on speed and stroke. Sure, tip softness may come into play because you don't have to hit the cb as hard to get the desired action, but I don't believe the shaft itself plays much of a roll in it.....not even sure the tip does, as I play with a medium hard tip and notice no difference when using a soft-tipped cue, other than mushrooming.

That aligns with what I know of how Meucci tests their low deflection shafts. They tune their shafts to have the right amount of flex to minimize deflection/squirt based on similar mechanical testing.

When someone says a Meucci has more flex, I can get their meaning if they’re talking about a black dot shaft. But if they’re talking about a low-price base model 13mm shaft, then I think they’re just spreading the myth.

https://youtu.be/ke_Dnfko_Vs

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rhatten · Feb 27, 2018

I've often wondered how to convey what "put a 1/2 tip or 1 tip of english" really means to other people when trying to convey to 'students of pool' how (and for that matter where on the CB) to place english ... ie off center CB. This makes my point pretty clear with these two related conversations

In SFC9Ball (Jim Baker-PBIA Advanced Instructor) Post #9 in this threat states:
.."Spin comes from striking the cue ball on the horizontal axis up to 3 tips ( 1 tip = 3.78mm or the circumference of the circle in the red circle cue ball) and how firm you strike the cue ball. There are many myths in pool out there that are just not true."

Stating 1 tip (of English) = 3.78 mm off of CCB... Fast forward to BOB Meucci's definition of appling english in his video on testing his "mechanical swing arm" testing at CCB... seen in this video at 5:54m

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke_Dnfko_Vs&feature=youtu.be

Note here Bob M states that he's (the mechanical stroke arm) appling right english at 3/16" off CCB (or "slightly less than 1/2 tip english")... A quick google search finds 3/16" is 4.7625 mm. That would make a full 1 tip of english = to 9.52 mm.

So if I'm shooting with say a 12mm shaft (say my MezzWX900), how do I know when I'm putting a 1/2 tip of english on the CB ... which is 6mm off center? According to Jim post above that's almost 2 full tips... (2 X's 3.78= 7.56mm)

What about a 14mm or a 10.5 mm shaft?

Seems to me that there is no standard way to convey to put 'a half tip or a whole tip' outside english and have it mean the same thing for any 2 different people/instructors etc.. [This is without regard to tip speed (10mph or 2mph) or Shaft type or even tip shape or even chalk characteristics or CB Surface dirtiness.]

Just saying.. The Language of Pool in one's mind (the 'feel of it') is hard enough to quantify but the mathematical language should not have this must diversity OR we'll just keep talking past one another...

R

What is 1/2 tip anyway? Really...

Standardize it!

measureman · Feb 27, 2018

I had a Schon in the mid 80s,great cue and it played well.
In a moment of temporary insanity i sold it and bought a Meucci.
I could draw the cue ball with much less effort and whip whitey around the table much easier then with the Schon.
Sad part was the Meucci fell apart in a short time.
Great playing cue,bad build quality.

MattPoland · Feb 27, 2018

rhatten said:
What is 1/2 tip anyway? Really...

Standardize it!

I tune myself to the stick. I hit a ball directly at a diamond on the long rail to come back to my stick. Then whatever amount of offset takes me half a diamond over on the return is 1 tip. That same amount should take me a full diamond over when against the short rail.

Whatever that amount of offset is for my stroke on that stick is my baseline. From there I can extend or shorten any kick, bank or cue ball track by those increments from their natural path using that reference.

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rhatten · Feb 27, 2018

MattPoland said:
I tune myself to the stick. I hit a ball directly at a diamond on the long rail to come back to my stick. Then whatever amount of offset takes me half a diamond over on the return is 1 tip. That same amount should take me a full diamond over when against the short rail.

Whatever that amount of offset is for my stroke on that stick is my baseline. From there I can extend or shorten any kick, bank or cue ball track by those increments from their natural path using that reference.

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So like is this with "pocket speed"? Is any top or bottom added to the spin? and is this like a medium speed (up and down the table 3-4x's) or with like a break speed? I mean I always thought 1 tip of spin ='s like 1 Diamond across the table (Long rail to Long rail) at like a medium speed... Seems that's different than your suggestion. Looking to try to find a solid standard description to communicate with

Thx R

greyghost · Feb 27, 2018

rhatten said:
I've often wondered how to convey what "put a 1/2 tip or 1 tip of english" really means to other people when trying to convey to 'students of pool' how (and for that matter where on the CB) to place english ... ie off center CB. This makes my point pretty clear with these two related conversations

In SFC9Ball (Jim Baker-PBIA Advanced Instructor) Post #9 in this threat states:

.."Spin comes from striking the cue ball on the horizontal axis up to 3 tips ( 1 tip = 3.78mm or the circumference of the circle in the red circle cue ball) and how firm you strike the cue ball. There are many myths in pool out there that are just not true."

Stating 1 tip (of English) = 3.78 mm off of CCB... Fast forward to BOB Meucci's definition of appling english in his video on testing his "mechanical swing arm" testing at CCB... seen in this video at 5:54m

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke_Dnfko_Vs&feature=youtu.be

Note here Bob M states that he's (the mechanical stroke arm) appling right english at 3/16" off CCB (or "slightly less than 1/2 tip english")... A quick google search finds 3/16" is 4.7625 mm. That would make a full 1 tip of english = to 9.52 mm.

So if I'm shooting with say a 12mm shaft (say my MezzWX900), how do I know when I'm putting a 1/2 tip of english on the CB ... which is 6mm off center? According to Jim post above that's almost 2 full tips... (2 X's 3.78= 7.56mm)

What about a 14mm or a 10.5 mm shaft?

Seems to me that there is no standard way to convey to put 'a half tip or a whole tip' outside english and have it mean the same thing for any 2 different people/instructors etc.. [This is without regard to tip speed (10mph or 2mph) or Shaft type or even tip shape or even chalk characteristics or CB Surface dirtiness.]

Just saying.. The Language of Pool in one's mind (the 'feel of it') is hard enough to quantify but the mathematical language should not have this must diversity OR we'll just keep talking past one another...

R

What is 1/2 tip anyway? Really...

Standardize it!

It is standardized....it’s the size of the circle

️ that’s the actual tip “contact patch” size

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Bob Jewett · Feb 27, 2018

greyghost said:
It is standardized....it’s the size of the circle ️ that’s the actual tip “contact patch” size

..

The size of that patch depends on how hard the tip is and how hard you shoot. I think that definition is more or less pointless and useless.

greyghost · Feb 28, 2018

Bob Jewett said:
The size of that patch depends on how hard the tip is and how hard you shoot. I think that definition is more or less pointless and useless.

Well I shoot with a hard tip and I keep speed pretty consistent

That’s why half players can’t hold their rock. English gets applied like popcorn butter.

10 ish mm breadth per?

Why over estimate the contact

Why add so much salt to the food bob....everyone’s blood pressure high from the misses

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SFC9ball · Feb 28, 2018

rhatten said:
I've often wondered how to convey what "put a 1/2 tip or 1 tip of english" really means to other people when trying to convey to 'students of pool' how (and for that matter where on the CB) to place english ... ie off center CB. This makes my point pretty clear with these two related conversations

In SFC9Ball (Jim Baker-PBIA Advanced Instructor) Post #9 in this threat states:
.."Spin comes from striking the cue ball on the horizontal axis up to 3 tips ( 1 tip = 3.78mm or the circumference of the circle in the red circle cue ball) and how firm you strike the cue ball. There are many myths in pool out there that are just not true."

Stating 1 tip (of English) = 3.78 mm off of CCB... Fast forward to BOB Meucci's definition of appling english in his video on testing his "mechanical swing arm" testing at CCB... seen in this video at 5:54m

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke_Dnfko_Vs&feature=youtu.be

Note here Bob M states that he's (the mechanical stroke arm) appling right english at 3/16" off CCB (or "slightly less than 1/2 tip english")... A quick google search finds 3/16" is 4.7625 mm. That would make a full 1 tip of english = to 9.52 mm.

So if I'm shooting with say a 12mm shaft (say my MezzWX900), how do I know when I'm putting a 1/2 tip of english on the CB ... which is 6mm off center? According to Jim post above that's almost 2 full tips... (2 X's 3.78= 7.56mm)

What about a 14mm or a 10.5 mm shaft?

Seems to me that there is no standard way to convey to put 'a half tip or a whole tip' outside english and have it mean the same thing for any 2 different people/instructors etc.. [This is without regard to tip speed (10mph or 2mph) or Shaft type or even tip shape or even chalk characteristics or CB Surface dirtiness.]

Just saying.. The Language of Pool in one's mind (the 'feel of it') is hard enough to quantify but the mathematical language should not have this must diversity OR we'll just keep talking past one another...

R

What is 1/2 tip anyway? Really...

Standardize it!

Even thought we all play the cue sport games does not mean we speak the same language, I thought 1 tip of English was the size of my tip on my shaft until I got educated by Scott Lee that the PBIA recognizes what I had described above, so now when the PBIA Instructors and their students now have an understanding what a tip of English means to them. Same goes for speed on the pool table, if I told you to hit a 3 speed on the pool table you would not know how hard to hit it or an idea of how hard to hit it unless you have had instructions on how to do so.

A tip of English means many different measurements depending on who you ask, the same with how hard to hit a shot. If I told a student to hit a ball at a medium speed their medium and my medium might be vastly different, but if I tell them to hit it with a 3 speed and they understand the speed zones, now I have a standard and something to measure the hit with.

If we can standardize some measurements in pool like tip of English, speed in which to hit the cue ball ETC. the better it is for people to understand.

Los Gatos Taki · Feb 28, 2018

Years ago, I tried a couple of different Meucci Cues, made in the early 80s, because of the spin story.
It seemed to me that I did get more spin than my regular cue. The reason for this, I did not know. I did know that apparently, the cues had to be made from about 1985 or earlier and have the original Meucci shaft from 1985 or earlier.

Patrick Johnson · Feb 28, 2018

rhatten said:
What is 1/2 tip anyway? Really...

Standardize it!

MattPoland said:
...whatever amount of offset takes me a full diamond over when against the short rail.

rhatten;6100024I said:
... always thought 1 tip of spin ='s like 1 Diamond across the table (Long rail to Long rail) at like a medium speed...

I like calibrating sidespin this way (by how many diamonds of crosstable angle I get) - but I don't use "tips" to describe it.

greyghost said:
It is standardized....it’s the size of the circle ️ that’s the actual tip “contact patch” size

Bob Jewett said:
The size of that patch depends on how hard the tip is and how hard you shoot. I think that definition is more or less pointless and useless.

Agree with Bob on this.

SFC9ball said:
If we can standardize some measurements in pool like tip of English, speed in which to hit the cue ball ETC. the better it is for people to understand.

The obvious way has been suggested here more than once: use fractions of maximum spin (1/4 max, 1/2 max, etc.) - that translates to the same thing for everybody, assuming everybody knows that max spin = ~1/2 the distance from center to edge (so 1/4 max = 1/8 the distance from center to edge, 1/2 max = 1/4 the distance, etc.).

On the broken-in GCs I usually play on, 1/3 max spin creates a 1-diamond crosstable angle, 2/3 = 2 diamonds and max = 3 diamonds (very convenient). You can call that 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips if you like, but I won't know what you're saying until you define "tip". Also, it changes from table to table, but gives you a baseline to work from.

pj
chgo

greyghost · Feb 28, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
I like calibrating sidespin this way (by how many diamonds of crosstable angle I get) - but I don't use "tips" to describe it.

Agree with Bob on this.

The obvious way has been suggested here more than once: use fractions of maximum spin (1/4 max, 1/2 max, etc.) - that translates to the same thing for everybody, assuming everybody knows that max spin = ~1/2 the distance from center to edge (so 1/4 max = 1/8 the distance from center to edge, 1/2 max = 1/4 the distance, etc.).

On the broken-in GCs I usually play on, 1/3 max spin creates a 1-diamond crosstable angle, 2/3 = 2 diamonds and max = 3 diamonds (very convenient). You can call that 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips if you like, but I won't know what you're saying until you define "tip". Also, it changes from table to table, but gives you a baseline to work from.

pj
chgo

Now that I can get with describing it like that in regard to fraction of max spin.

Welcome back player

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Patrick Johnson · Feb 28, 2018

greyghost said:
Now that I can get with describing it like that in regard to fraction of max spin.

Welcome back player

Thanks, Keeb.

Here's how the fractions of max translate to mm and inches.

pj
chgo

View attachment 52525

pt109 · Feb 28, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
I like calibrating sidespin this way (by how many diamonds of crosstable angle I get) - but I don't use "tips" to describe it.

Agree with Bob on this.

The obvious way has been suggested here more than once: use fractions of maximum spin (1/4 max, 1/2 max, etc.) - that translates to the same thing for everybody, assuming everybody knows that max spin = ~1/2 the distance from center to edge (so 1/4 max = 1/8 the distance from center to edge, 1/2 max = 1/4 the distance, etc.).

On the broken-in GCs I usually play on, 1/3 max spin creates a 1-diamond crosstable angle, 2/3 = 2 diamonds and max = 3 diamonds (very convenient). You can call that 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips if you like, but I won't know what you're saying until you define "tip". Also, it changes from table to table, but gives you a baseline to work from.

pj
chgo

:wave2::clapping::wave3::bow-down::bow-down:

Patrick Johnson · Feb 28, 2018

pt109 said:
:wave2::clapping::wave3::bow-down::bow-down:

lol - nice to see you too, Mr. President.

pj
chgo

AtLarge · Feb 28, 2018

pt109 said:
:wave2::clapping::wave3::bow-down::bow-down:

I second that!

Welcome back, pj.

Patrick Johnson · Feb 28, 2018

AtLarge said:
I second that!

Welcome back, pj.

Thanks, AL. Wonder how long I'll last this time.

pj
chgo

greyghost · Feb 28, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
Thanks, AL. Wonder how long I'll last this time.

pj
chgo

No matter....we shall fight infamy, the troll army and bring the golden age back!

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Meucci Myth

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