Refs with Gloves—a science question

ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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There is static and then there is static

pt109 said:
I’m still not convinced that static is not a reason for some skids.
...I saved some info on my computer which I will post later in the day.

One day you, Bob, and the Doc will be saying...”We should have listened to that red neck
high school drop-out.....:)
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Static electricity that is barely detectable might be one thing, stronger static electricity another. Static electricity can and does kill people. Sliding feet, even accidentally across some carpet used to deliver quite a jolt. I'd have to think that much static could be significant but it also seems like it would be discharged before the shot. Perhaps static can build from bridge hands rubbing on felt? I don't know. Maybe from shirt material rubbing is a more likely culprit.

Traveling high desert areas things would build up enough static that you learned to discharge it before reaching for a chrome door handle on a vehicle. There are very few things I declare impossible anymore. Something only has to happen once to prove it can happen, proving something can't happen is almost impossible.

Hu
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
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Always pays to look outside pool for answers and no better place than snooker where there is more money in the game and they can afford testing.

Strachan Cloth actually paid some experts to determine if static had anything to do with kicks.... Turns out it did... The balls building up static would cause them to pick chalk particles up from the tablebed and increase the chances of a skid occuring without the infamous chalk mark being in contact.. The studies led them to actually treat their cloth with a static guard. They actually rolled out the new cloth in 2017...

I found out about the research and had a long discusion with them about skids in 2016 when I was considering trying to match a Great White green to their tournament snooker coth.

I had always thought humidity and temperature had a major roll in kicks based upon the tournaments where we saw a huge number of them but it was the static and not the humidity/temp that caused the balls to pick up chalk on their travels around the table...

After testing they claimed a reduction in skids by 80% by adding the Anti-Kick technology to the cloth.. http://www.wsptextiles.com/blog/2017/02/
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
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The Renfro said:
Always pays to look outside pool for answers and no better place than snooker where there is more money in the game and they can afford testing.

Strachan Cloth actually paid some experts to determine if static had anything to do with kicks.... Turns out it did... The balls building up static would cause them to pick chalk particles up from the tablebed and increase the chances of a skid occuring without the infamous chalk mark being in contact.. The studies led them to actually treat their cloth with a static guard. They actually rolled out the new cloth in 2017...

I found out about the research and had a long discusion with them about skids in 2016 when I was considering trying to match a Great White green to their tournament snooker coth.

I had always thought humidity and temperature had a major roll in kicks based upon the tournaments where we saw a huge number of them but it was the static and not the humidity/temp that caused the balls to pick up chalk on their travels around the table...

After testing they claimed a reduction in skids by 80% by adding the Anti-Kick technology to the cloth.. http://www.wsptextiles.com/blog/2017/02/
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SE was not directly responsible. SE may have caused more chalk cling and that is what causes skid/kicks.
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
garczar said:
SE was not directly responsible. SE may have caused more chalk cling and that is what causes skid/kicks.
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Thank you for paraphrasing what I typed... Yes the chalk caused the skids, the SE only made the balls pickup the chalk...
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
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The Renfro said:
Thank you for paraphrasing what I typed... Yes the chalk caused the skids, the SE only made the balls pickup the chalk...
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In pool its still WAY more likely that dirt/oil will cause chalk pick-up since we don't have the dude with the white gloves on,at least not very often. Another thing i'll never lose sleep over.
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
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dr_dave said:
It would be interesting to see these tests and test results. I am honestly a little skeptical of "scientific studies" mentioned in marketing materials.

Regards,
Dave
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I am always skeptical as you know from many of our back and forths on topics we do not agree on... I will try and find my contact to see if they published or would be willing to publish the tests.

As the flagship snooker cloth steeped in tradition I tend to trust their claims quite a bit more over new products that are trying to gain market share with baseless claims, made up "scientific" terms and false countries of origin.. They would have much more to lose over false claims than the other "new companies"........
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
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The Renfro said:
I am always skeptical as you know from many of our back and forths on topics we do not agree on... I will try and find my contact to see if they published or would be willing to publish the tests.
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... or at least have them describe what they did and how they did it so the results can be tested by others. Under typical conditions, cling/skid/kick does not happen very often, so did they do something to help it happen more frequently (e.g., did they really load up the surface of the cloth with chalk dust)? Is it possible the chemical treatment on the cloth is making its way onto the balls? That could definitely reduce the amount of throw on all shots (including shots with cling/skid/kick), as demonstrated in the video on my ball cleaning/surface-treatment resource page.

Thanks,
Dave
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I've noticed that Centennial blue circle cue balls collect more chalk "smudges" than other popular brands, but haven't noticed any more kicks with them.

pj <- whatever that means
chgo
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
https://www.google.ca/search?q=snoo...ved=0ahUKEwihrqvpneLUAhWi2YMKHYkXDgoQ1QIIaSgC

Here's some thoughts on kicks/skids....static electricity is one of them.
...We came up with 7 reasons for kicks...20 of us i a practice room in the UK...
...about 25 years ago

I just play the game...with a bit of empirical knowledge..I need you science guys...
...but to remind you what got me started on this...kicks were happening....
...ref changed nylon gloves to cotton gloves...kicks stopped.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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logical said:
An interesting study.
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Too many equations and not enough practical experience. They make a few measurements and calculations and then build up a huge theory with the intent of showing static electricity is a possible cause of skids/kicks. They fail to ask obvious questions.

Their analysis is unable to explain why on a kick with follow the cue ball jumps into the air.

For me a huge problem is that charge acts at a distance. If the charge was large enough to cause the balls to change their normal motion, the object ball would move before the cue ball hit it. That is easy to look for and they did not look for it. Further, the charges they observed were about 500V and it would be possible with added charge from a Van de Graaff generator (200,000V for a cheap one) to make the object ball take off without any actual contact from the cue ball according to their theory. From their analysis: "1KV on both balls could account for 6% loss in spin velocity."

Or have the cue ball pass an object ball just barely missing it with huge charge on each ball. This test is very easy to do. The object ball would move significantly without actually being struck if their theory is true.

It is unfortunate that the sponsoring company did not ask a separate set of physicists to look for holes in the assumptions, theories and methods of the company that did the work. The company did conclude that more study was needed which I can agree with.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pt109 said:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=snoo...ved=0ahUKEwihrqvpneLUAhWi2YMKHYkXDgoQ1QIIaSgC

Here's some thoughts on kicks/skids....static electricity is one of them.
...We came up with 7 reasons for kicks...20 of us i a practice room in the UK...
...about 25 years ago

I just play the game...with a bit of empirical knowledge..I need you science guys...
...but to remind you what got me started on this...kicks were happening....
...ref changed nylon gloves to cotton gloves...kicks stopped.
Click to expand...
The reduction in SE caused less chalk/dirt to cling to balls resulting in less skids/kicks. SE by itself is not enough to cause changes in balls behavior.
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
garczar said:
The reduction in SE caused less chalk/dirt to cling to balls resulting in less skids/kicks. SE by itself is not enough to cause changes in balls behavior.
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Yeah, I’m beginning t o realize that static is only aiding and abetting.
 
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