Neutral racker, every tourney, period

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
So imagine this: neutral racker, EVERY tournament, NO eyeballing the rack, period. Balls are racked, ladies and gentlemen, break the balls.


So, what do you suppose would happen after all the "belly-aching" stopped? Shorter, less boring, WAY less aggravating matches, that's what. For all parties; players, officials and sweaters. Ok, yeah, someone here is gonna say "Well, then someone will bribe a ref / racker and someone ( who, obviously, won't be eyeballing the rack ) is going to get gaff racks." Ummmm... yeah. Sure, it's a larcenous world. And the "planned-and-paid-for" gaff rack is gonna happen MAYBE .000000000002 of the time. What this would get rid of is this maddening, endless, time-consuming clown-show of taking 15 minutes between games "checking" the rack / re-racking.

Ok, I'm now running for my reinforced bunker / bomb-shelter!
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
So imagine this: neutral racker, EVERY tournament, NO eyeballing the rack, period. Balls are racked, ladies and gentlemen, break the balls.


So, what do you suppose would happen after all the "belly-aching" stopped? Shorter, less boring, WAY less aggravating matches, that's what. For all parties; players, officials and sweaters. Ok, yeah, someone here is gonna say "Well, then someone will bribe a ref / racker and someone ( who, obviously, won't be eyeballing the rack ) is going to get gaff racks." Ummmm... yeah. Sure, it's a larcenous world. And the "planned-and-paid-for" gaff rack is gonna happen MAYBE .000000000002 of the time. What this would get rid of is this maddening, endless, time-consuming clown-show of taking 15 minutes between games "checking" the rack / re-racking.

Ok, I'm now running for my reinforced bunker / bomb-shelter!

This bunker you claim to have access to....is it built well, is it up to code?
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
This bunker you claim to have access to....is it built well, is it up to code?

It is and it is... circa 1962. It's also well-stocked with plenty of Cap'n Crunch and Cocoa Puffs, Velveeta, Spam, Wonder Bread and Dave Clark 5 and Chad and Jeremy 45s. I'm in it for the long haul.
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So simple

This racking issue is simple to solve. Non-breaking player racks. If breaker doesn't like the rack let him pass the break back to the racker.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This racking issue is simple to solve. Non-breaking player racks. If breaker doesn't like the rack let him pass the break back to the racker.
So the skill is in putting up gaff racks that you know how to break and your opponent doesn't. I think that's a bad direction.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So imagine this: neutral racker, EVERY tournament, NO eyeballing the rack, period. Balls are racked, ladies and gentlemen, break the balls.


So, what do you suppose would happen after all the "belly-aching" stopped? Shorter, less boring, WAY less aggravating matches, that's what. For all parties; players, officials and sweaters. Ok, yeah, someone here is gonna say "Well, then someone will bribe a ref / racker and someone ( who, obviously, won't be eyeballing the rack ) is going to get gaff racks." Ummmm... yeah. Sure, it's a larcenous world. And the "planned-and-paid-for" gaff rack is gonna happen MAYBE .000000000002 of the time. What this would get rid of is this maddening, endless, time-consuming clown-show of taking 15 minutes between games "checking" the rack / re-racking.

Ok, I'm now running for my reinforced bunker / bomb-shelter!

I have an actual hurricane shelter in my garage
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
I have an actual hurricane shelter in my garage

Wish I did... I may wanna come up and stay a few days with you next Sept / Oct. You're @ 6 miles ( give or take ) away. And speaking of such, a tornado warning was just issued for you north-county types @ 3pm. Hope nothing got hit.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wish I did... I may wanna come up and stay a few days with you next Sept / Oct. You're @ 6 miles ( give or take ) away. And speaking of such, a tornado warning was just issued for you north-county types @ 3pm. Hope nothing got hit.

Hurricane shelter...or dungeon?

Hmmmmmm...
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So imagine this: neutral racker, EVERY tournament, NO eyeballing the rack, period. Balls are racked, ladies and gentlemen, break the balls.


So, what do you suppose would happen after all the "belly-aching" stopped? Shorter, less boring, WAY less aggravating matches, that's what. For all parties; players, officials and sweaters. Ok, yeah, someone here is gonna say "Well, then someone will bribe a ref / racker and someone ( who, obviously, won't be eyeballing the rack ) is going to get gaff racks." Ummmm... yeah. Sure, it's a larcenous world. And the "planned-and-paid-for" gaff rack is gonna happen MAYBE .000000000002 of the time. What this would get rid of is this maddening, endless, time-consuming clown-show of taking 15 minutes between games "checking" the rack / re-racking.

Ok, I'm now running for my reinforced bunker / bomb-shelter!
Great minds think alike. I like it. All of it.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So imagine this: neutral racker, EVERY tournament, NO eyeballing the rack, period. Balls are racked, ladies and gentlemen, break the balls.


So, what do you suppose would happen after all the "belly-aching" stopped? Shorter, less boring, WAY less aggravating matches, that's what. For all parties; players, officials and sweaters. Ok, yeah, someone here is gonna say "Well, then someone will bribe a ref / racker and someone ( who, obviously, won't be eyeballing the rack ) is going to get gaff racks." Ummmm... yeah. Sure, it's a larcenous world. And the "planned-and-paid-for" gaff rack is gonna happen MAYBE .000000000002 of the time. What this would get rid of is this maddening, endless, time-consuming clown-show of taking 15 minutes between games "checking" the rack / re-racking.

Ok, I'm now running for my reinforced bunker / bomb-shelter!

Not going to happen unless it's at events with a ref at each table that is well trained in racking.

I remember there was a match between Dechaine and someone else where a bunch of time was spend on racking, the tour director had them get a rack boy. The racks that guy did were less than ideal to put it nicely LOL Not only where they not making a ball on the break, the breaks were opening up like they were breaking on sand. I would not bother going to tournaments if I knew that some random person will be racking for me.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Not going to happen unless it's at events with a ref at each table that is well trained in racking.
...

I believe the just-completed US International Open had one ref per six tables who also did all of the racking. If the players are mostly reffing their own matches, I think it's not hard for an area ref to handle at least four tables.
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
Great minds think alike. I like it. All of it.

I knew there was a reason we're friends. We probably did some scuffling around together back in the 20s or 30s. Of course that would've been in a past life. Neither of us are old enough to have been doing *anything* in the 20s or 30s ( close, but no ceegar ). I'm betting we made some $$$ out there.
 

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So imagine this: neutral racker, EVERY tournament, NO eyeballing the rack, period. Balls are racked, ladies and gentlemen, break the balls.


So, what do you suppose would happen after all the "belly-aching" stopped? Shorter, less boring, WAY less aggravating matches, that's what. For all parties; players, officials and sweaters. Ok, yeah, someone here is gonna say "Well, then someone will bribe a ref / racker and someone ( who, obviously, won't be eyeballing the rack ) is going to get gaff racks." Ummmm... yeah. Sure, it's a larcenous world. And the "planned-and-paid-for" gaff rack is gonna happen MAYBE .000000000002 of the time. What this would get rid of is this maddening, endless, time-consuming clown-show of taking 15 minutes between games "checking" the rack / re-racking.

Ok, I'm now running for my reinforced bunker / bomb-shelter!

It is really funny how you guys over the pond try to invent something we in Europe do successfully for over decade :thumbup: Use racking sheets/table-tapping template and the problem is solved, end of story. Especially table-tapping template use at Eurotour is more or less flawless, balls are racked in 10 secs and there is no plastic to deal with after the break. In about 6 eurotour tournaments+10 European championships I played I remember maybe 2-3 times the table didnt rack perfectly because of the cloth gave a little over the course of the tournament. Ref came, retapped the table in 3 mins and the problem was gone. Whats not to like?
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe the just-completed US International Open had one ref per six tables who also did all of the racking. If the players are mostly reffing their own matches, I think it's not hard for an area ref to handle at least four tables.

Agreed. There are pool halls in Asia where one rack guy or girl racks 10-12 tables at a time when the place is busy. Some of them even do it with a smile.
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
It is really funny how you guys over the pond try to invent something we in Europe do successfully for over decade :thumbup: Use racking sheets/table-tapping template and the problem is solved, end of story. Especially table-tapping template use at Eurotour is more or less flawless, balls are racked in 10 secs and there is no plastic to deal with after the break. In about 6 eurotour tournaments+10 European championships I played I remember maybe 2-3 times the table didnt rack perfectly because of the cloth gave a little over the course of the tournament. Ref came, retapped the table in 3 mins and the problem was gone. Whats not to like?

The issue is not how the balls are racked, with what or by who. The issue is players being allowed to "check" the rack and then want a re-rack, as many times as they wish, ad infinatum. My suggestion is based on several things. One, a neutral racker. Any ( medium to large ) tournament circa ( at *least* ) 1985 ( or so ) back into the dawn of time ( pool-wise ), had refs racking the balls. And unless the one ball "fell off" the spot ( which happened maybe .0000000002 percent of the time ), players NEVER demanded a re-rack. Even in the smaller tourneys when players racked, no one EVER racked their own racks. It simply was unheard of. The losing player racked the balls, ( and, again, unless the one fell away from the other balls, in which case they were quickly re-racked ) loser racked, winner broke and the game was on... there have always been spoiled prima-donnas in pool but it never manifested itself in the racking process, thereby creating a situation where, literally, 10, 15, even *20* ( or longer! ) minutes have been wasted between games.

So, a neutral racker goes a long way toward alleviating the issue. Racker has no dog in the fight, racks them tight because that's what he/she is there for and is successful 99% of the time. If the % falls much below that, the TD can replace him/her.

Next, players are NOT allowed to even LOOK at the rack, except from several feet away as they get ready to break. This rule was used in a large tourney very recently. As far as I know, it was majorly successful. Balls are racked, break them. Simple as that. No "looking", no "checking" and most importantly, *NO* "re-racks". Issue solved.

So, again, it's not how they're racked, by what device or by winner or loser. It's being allowed to check and re-check and re-check and recheck and on and on and on and on and on, THEN, demand a re-rack. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And if what I just wrote in the last 2 sentences is hard to read, imagine ( and most of you don't need to imagine, you're seen it up close and personal ) having to *experience* the actual process ( especially if you're monetarily invested in the outcome in some way, shape or form ).

It's race time. Ladies and gentlemen... start your engines.
 

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The issue is not how the balls are racked, with what or by who. The issue is players being allowed to "check" the rack and then want a re-rack, as many times as they wish, ad infinatum. My suggestion is based on several things. One, a neutral racker. Any ( medium to large ) tournament circa ( at *least* ) 1985 ( or so ) back into the dawn of time ( pool-wise ), had refs racking the balls. And unless the one ball "fell off" the spot ( which happened maybe .0000000002 percent of the time ), players NEVER demanded a re-rack. Even in the smaller tourneys when players racked, no one EVER racked their own racks. It simply was unheard of. The losing player racked the balls, ( and, again, unless the one fell away from the other balls, in which case they were quickly re-racked ) loser racked, winner broke and the game was on... there have always been spoiled prima-donnas in pool but it never manifested itself in the racking process, thereby creating a situation where, literally, 10, 15, even *20* ( or longer! ) minutes have been wasted between games.

So, a neutral racker goes a long way toward alleviating the issue. Racker has no dog in the fight, racks them tight because that's what he/she is there for and is successful 99% of the time. If the % falls much below that, the TD can replace him/her.

Next, players are NOT allowed to even LOOK at the rack, except from several feet away as they get ready to break. This rule was used in a large tourney very recently. As far as I know, it was majorly successful. Balls are racked, break them. Simple as that. No "looking", no "checking" and most importantly, *NO* "re-racks". Issue solved.

So, again, it's not how they're racked, by what device or by winner or loser. It's being allowed to check and re-check and re-check and recheck and on and on and on and on and on, THEN, demand a re-rack. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And if what I just wrote in the last 2 sentences is hard to read, imagine ( and most of you don't need to imagine, you're seen it up close and personal ) having to *experience* the actual process ( especially if you're monetarily invested in the outcome in some way, shape or form ).

It's race time. Ladies and gentlemen... start your engines.

Yes,i understand your point. But I really think our solution is more efficient/elegant. The fact is that at eurotour there are almost no demands for rerack even if players check the rack usually,there are NONE gaps whatsoever like 99% of the time. And in that 1% the gap is usually like 0.2mm,you have to look really closely to see it. In such case the player who checks the rack calls the racker and the racker promtly tightens the rack. It really makes BIG difference in the whole process as it leaves basically no space for arguments and repeated rerack demands. And MAYBE the pool culture over the pond is more cut-throat than in Europe as well...but I dont see any cure for that :D
 

Nick B

This is gonna hurt
Silver Member
So the skill is in putting up gaff racks that you know how to break and your opponent doesn't. I think that's a bad direction.



I think I have a better variation. It’s kind of like a shotgun clause in business.

Non-breaker racks. Breaker inspects and asks for a rerack. Racker agrees and does so until breaker is happy. If racker disagrees he calls over TD.

Now here comes the shotgun.
If TD thinks it’s good breaker loses a game and the break. If rack is bad then racker loses that game.

After second try TD is automatically called over and rules. Now everyone’s trying to give good racks or will just be dropping needless games.

Quick and simple to implement with no additional staff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
So imagine this: neutral racker, EVERY tournament, NO eyeballing the rack, period. Balls are racked, ladies and gentlemen, break the balls.

Not for me unless eyeballing the rack is permitted. That's how it's done at the Mosconi. The ref racks them, you can inspect them, but no reracks. This, history has shown, always keep the match moving.

Neutral racker worked in a big way at Pat Fleming's International 9-ball Open and it's going to work at the next US Open. Matchroom's US Open in April 2019 will play down to 16 and then every match of the last three days will be on the stream table, which will have a ref racking the balls. Along with the Derby City 9-ball event, these will be the premier nine ball tourneys on the American pool calendar in the foreseeable future.

Implementing neutral racker across the board is unrealistic, but let's, at least, do it to the greatest extent possible in the biggest events.
 
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