TV? Foget About It

Johnnyt · May 22, 2009

I wish people would stop basing decisions in pool on what TV wants in an event. TV wants jump-cues; TV wants short races, TV wants 7-ball and 9-ball, TV wants a limited # of safes, and last but not least they want clapping on every shot, weather it’s a good shot or bad shot.

Well TV got ALL these things and still won’t show any pool live on TV. The little pool shown on TV is a joke. It’s put on months after the original event is over. They still don’t show all the games in 7 game races, and production is awful.

F*** TV. When they want to show pool like they show bowling, golf, and tennis, then worry about them. Until then don’t let them ruin our game anymore than they already have over the last 20 years. JMO…but I’m right

. Johnnyt

Rob_jerrylee · May 22, 2009

I'm right with you on that JohnnyT , I do like some events but others are horrible , like sudden death 7 ball who really wants to watch that , and they should have live events on tv , but as of late watching tv is overrated , I'd rather just go down stair as shoot on my own table instead of watching tv .

muddawg · May 22, 2009

completely 100% agree with both of you

nathandumoulin · May 22, 2009

Failing to produce good pool on TV hurts the industry. Less exposure results in generating less money, and less money for the sport means less money for the players.

In other words, I strongly disagree.

I think a compromise needs to be made. You can please the players by sticking with what they want....longer races of 10ball. You then edit the match down to a condensed version consisting of the highlight racks. This way the players get to play a proper game, but the viewer isnt stuck watching safety battles. The match will also fit within the required time limit for TV.

If you want to solve the slow play, just add in a medium length shot clock. The players wont mind if the time is reasonable, and it makes for better TV.

The players are happy, and the TV audience is entertained. Seems pretty simple to me.

While we're on the subject, I want to bring something up. Every sport has its recognizable figures. These people are constantly featured on TV and are given the maximum exposure in order to turn them into icons and sport heroes. The general public wants to pull for these figures (or teams). They want to be able to follow progress easily...to watch them as much as possible. All sports understand this and utilize it to the benefit of the industry.

Pool however does not do this. We pick the TV table matches randomly. Although this is more fair, it's not the proper way to give the sport the necessary exposure. Watching two unknows play really isnt all that exciting. You dont know who to route for, and in the end, arent nearly as concerned with the outcome of the match. It makes for less drama, less excitement, and ultimately less viewers.

And lastly....we cant keep changing games. Baseball is baseball, hockey is hockey, soccer is soccer, etc. But pool....its 10ball, 9abll, snooker, 7ball, 6ball, bank pool, etc. This just doesnt work. The general population (especially the TV watching population) doesnt want to have to think about what they're watching, and they certainly dont want to have to go research the rules of a game they are unfamiliar with. Just stick to one game and quit confusing the casual viewers, as realistically, the casual viewer is the demographic that we're trying to gain. Die hard fans will always find a way to watch and play the game. Its exposing the game to new people that is important.

Just my 2 cents.

muddawg · May 22, 2009

nathandumoulin said:
Failing to produce good pool on TV hurts the industry. Less exposure results in generating less money, and less money for the sport means less money for the players.

In other words, I strongly disagree.

I think a compromise needs to be made. You can please the players by taking longer races, say a 3 hour 10 ball match. You then edit the match down to a condense version consisting of the highlight racks. This way the players get to play a proper game, but the viewer isnt stuck watching safety battles.

If you want to solve the slow play, just add in a medium length shot clock. The players wont mind if the time is reasonable, and it makes for better TV.

Seems pretty simple to me.

While we're on the subject, I want to bring something up. Every sport has its recognizable figures. These people are constantly featured on TV and are given the maximum exposure in order to turn them into icons and sport heroes. The general public wants to pull for these figures (or teams). They want to be able to follow progress easily...to watch them as much as possible. All sports understand this and utilize it to the benefit of the industry.

Pool however does not do this. We pick the TV table matches randomly. Although this is more fair, it's not the proper way to give the sport the necessary exposure. Watching two unknows play really isnt all that exciting. You dont know who to route for, and in the end, arent nearly as concerned with the outcome of the match. It makes for less drama, less excitement, and ultimately less viewers.

Just my 2 cents.

You do make a good point... little exposure is better than no exposure at all, and some sort of compromise is needed... but I just feel that as of right now, pool on TV is horrible (in the USA, that is).

SJDinPHX · May 22, 2009

Johnnyt said:
I wish people would stop basing decisions in pool on what TV wants in an event. TV wants jump-cues; TV wants short races, TV wants 7-ball and 9-ball, TV wants a limited # of safes, and last but not least they want clapping on every shot, weather it’s a good shot or bad shot.

Well TV got ALL these things and still won’t show any pool live on TV. The little pool shown on TV is a joke. It’s put on months after the original event is over. They still don’t show all the games in 7 game races, and production is awful.

F*** TV. When they want to show pool like they show bowling, golf, and tennis, then worry about them. Until then don’t let them ruin our game anymore than they already have over the last 20 years. JMO…but I’m right . Johnnyt

Many good points well made Johnny. Pool has not adapted well to TV, and vice-versa.
However, it has gained some measure of acceptance in other markets with larger purses. Asia, England, the Philipines, to name a few.

It's all dollar driven. No big purses, small audience interest = no sponsors.
No sponsors = no reason for TV to ever care, one way or the other.

All the theories on how to change that, without a solid business model are just wishful thinking.

Until pool acquires some of the aforementioned attributes, plus a larger fan base, plus a viable, solid Pro organization for TV to deal with...nothing is likely to change.

I recently sent a long presentation to Mark Griffin, on a possible way to generate more interest in our great game.
It ain't a "magic bullet", but in the hands of someone like him, who knows what could happen.
I'm sure I'll hear back from him as soon as he has had time to evaluate the feasability of it, from the business end.

Still hoping for the best,

Dick

nathandumoulin · May 22, 2009

muddawg said:
You do make a good point... little exposure is better than no exposure at all, and some sort of compromise is needed... but I just feel that as of right now, pool on TV is horrible (in the USA, that is).

I agree with you 100%. Most of the pool on TV is awful.

I really wish Billiard Club or someone would hire me. Just like everyone else, I feel I could make a difference in the way the game is portrayed on TV.

Johnnyt · May 22, 2009

nathandumoulin said:
Failing to produce good pool on TV hurts the industry. Less exposure results in generating less money, and less money for the sport means less money for the players.

In other words, I strongly disagree.

I think a compromise needs to be made. You can please the players by sticking with what they want....longer races of 10ball. You then edit the match down to a condensed version consisting of the highlight racks. This way the players get to play a proper game, but the viewer isnt stuck watching safety battles. The match will also fit within the required time limit for TV.

If you want to solve the slow play, just add in a medium length shot clock. The players wont mind if the time is reasonable, and it makes for better TV.

The players are happy, and the TV audience is entertained. Seems pretty simple to me.

While we're on the subject, I want to bring something up. Every sport has its recognizable figures. These people are constantly featured on TV and are given the maximum exposure in order to turn them into icons and sport heroes. The general public wants to pull for these figures (or teams). They want to be able to follow progress easily...to watch them as much as possible. All sports understand this and utilize it to the benefit of the industry.

Pool however does not do this. We pick the TV table matches randomly. Although this is more fair, it's not the proper way to give the sport the necessary exposure. Watching two unknows play really isnt all that exciting. You dont know who to route for, and in the end, arent nearly as concerned with the outcome of the match. It makes for less drama, less excitement, and ultimately less viewers.

And lastly....we cant keep changing games. Baseball is baseball, hockey is hockey, soccer is soccer, etc. But pool....its 10ball, 9abll, snooker, 7ball, 6ball, bank pool, etc. This just doesnt work. The general population (especially the TV watching population) doesnt want to have to think about what they're watching, and they certainly dont want to have to go research the rules of a game they are unfamiliar with. Just stick to one game and quit confusing the casual viewers, as realistically, the casual viewer is the demographic that we're trying to gain. Die hard fans will always find a way to watch and play the game. Its exposing the game to new people that is important.

Just my 2 cents.

And I agree with eveything you just said. One game, races long enough to to get a win for the better player a good percentage of the time. Edit it for TV, and start interviewing players that are good, that are interesting, and have some pazazzz. Johnnyt

Johnnyt · May 22, 2009

SJDinPHX said:
Many good points well made Johnny. Pool has not adapted well to TV, and vice-versa.
However, it has gained some measure of acceptance in other markets with larger purses. Asia, England, the Philipines, to name a few.

It's all dollar driven. No big purses, small audience interest = no sponsors.
No sponsors = no reason for TV to ever care, one way or the other.

All the theories on how to change that, without a solid business model are just wishful thinking.

Until pool acquires some of the aforementioned attributes, plus a larger fan base, plus a viable, solid Pro organization for TV to deal with...nothing is likely to change.

I recently sent a long presentation to Mark Griffin, on a possible way to generate more interest in our great game.
It ain't a "magic bullet", but in the hands of someone like him, who knows what could happen.
I'm sure I'll hear back from him as soon as he has had time to evaluate the feasability of it, from the business end.

Still hoping for the best,

Dick

I agree, if anyone in the US can do it it would be Mark Griffin. Johnnyt

nathandumoulin · May 22, 2009

Who is Mark Griffin?

Richardson · May 22, 2009

I make a mention here for a show. And if someone uses it and it becomes popular i want my name in the credits somewhere. Just a honorable mention.

You call around to 20 of the best gambling/action halls around the country. You tell them in 2 months we will be there with TV cameras and a crew. BE READY

Then you tell them you want to see the highest action in the middle and action on the side that anyone in the world has ever seen. I wanna see pregame $100 coin flips on the table. I wanna see 5k -10k sets with LOTS of money side bet. I wanna see trash talk, i wanna see barking. Show people matching up. I wanna see hustles(HUSTLE OF THE WEEK) --Who cares if they are fake, TV people wont know the difference.

People want to see other people lose money. Just like poker, and just like seeing a guy rack his balls on a rail while falling off his skateboard.

Pool has a image of people up all night, and high stakes gambling/hustling. Why are people always trying to pretty it up with tournaments, OBVIOUSLY after years and years of this the general public dont care anyhow.

Nostroke · May 22, 2009

Johnnyt said:
I wish people would stop basing decisions in pool on what TV wants in an event. TV wants jump-cues; TV wants short races, TV wants 7-ball and 9-ball, TV wants a limited # of safes, and last but not least they want clapping on every shot, weather it’s a good shot or bad shot.
Johnnyt

Just to correct an ongoing misunderstanding. Neither TV nor the WPBA have ever indicated they want clapping on every shot. Ive been to quite a few TV matches and for the WPBA, Steve Tipton is the MC.

Before the TV matches Steve tells the audience that there have been studies done and the thing that holds the TV audience is if there is a feeling of excitement around the match which is of course generated by the audience. Then he usually goes on to describe a player who plays a "lock-up" safe and how the audience should cheer for a great safe just as much as for a great shot pocketing a ball!

That is really about it and somehow the audience takes this request to show some enthusiasm and excitement and responds with a weak smattering of applause after each shot. Beleive it or Don't!!

PS- I once saw Karen Corr play a deliberate foul and she got the same applause.

BryanMordt · May 22, 2009

The future.

I think the future for viewing pool will lean on the web. Companies like Kozoom are really offering a great production and it should only get better with time. The streaming & video quality will improve and the content is geared more to the enthusiast. The other benefit will be more interactivity with the viewers. I like what I am seeing from Kozoom, I hope they or businesses like them and pool grow together.

I forgot to mention TAR as well, I think they have a lot of potential too!

NewStroke · May 22, 2009

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is TAR (not the stuff on roofs)? I have seen it mentioned multiple times but no explanation.

crawfish · May 22, 2009

Good point. I feel that the internet is the wave of almost all media. It won't be long until there is no Netflix, dvd's, maybe even tv. A new show will be broadcast, and you download it. This stuff is right now happening. Streaming is the nuts.

muddawg · May 22, 2009

NewStroke said:
Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is TAR (not the stuff on roofs)? I have seen it mentioned multiple times but no explanation.

The Action Report

Two players get together to have a match, and TAR streams the matches, sometimes for free, sometimes its PPV. They also record the matches and make them available on DVD. TAR is basically one of the best things to happen to pool in recent years. I'm pretty sure that a good majority of the money they make goes into buying better equipment to make the streams better quality and more exciting. They give back way more to the game then any other organization I can think of at this moment. I, as well as many others, really appreciate all that they do for the game we all love.

nathandumoulin · May 22, 2009

It's going to be a good decade before streaming events can generate enough profit to justify high-end production expenses.

Sure, eventually all media will head that route...but we're talking about the present here. We need a solution now.

poolsnark · May 22, 2009

nathandumoulin said:
Who is Mark Griffin?

Are you serious?

This is the reason why you should do your own research when it comes to getting contacts in the industry instead of just asking people to give you names and numbers (like you were doing in that other thread).

As for bashing the production of the existing programming, all I can say is that I've seen your Mika videos and they aren't exactly "The Matrix" either. Don't get me wrong, the videos are fine as pool production goes, but they certainly didn't strike me as anything revolutionary (or evolutionary for that matter).

D C 6 Pocket · May 22, 2009

Johnnyt said:
I wish people would stop basing decisions in pool on what TV wants in an event. TV wants jump-cues; TV wants short races, TV wants 7-ball and 9-ball, TV wants a limited # of safes, and last but not least they want clapping on every shot, weather it’s a good shot or bad shot.

Well TV got ALL these things and still won’t show any pool live on TV. The little pool shown on TV is a joke. It’s put on months after the original event is over. They still don’t show all the games in 7 game races, and production is awful.

F*** TV. When they want to show pool like they show bowling, golf, and tennis, then worry about them. Until then don’t let them ruin our game anymore than they already have over the last 20 years. JMO…but I’m right . Johnnyt

Johnny, I think you have some valid points and would like to add something to think about. My expierence with the corporate world and their desire to get involved with pool tells me this............when someone can show them a business plan that they feel comfortable will gain them a reasonable share of the 32 million recreational players in the USA that play for all kinds of reasons BUT..are not on a league, not a pro, not a "Player looking for action" and chances are they don't even know about the az forum but just someone that plays for grins, giggles and braging rights.

How do you suppose we get those players interested?

I may have an answer after July!!

nathandumoulin · May 22, 2009

poolsnark said:
Are you serious?

This is the reason why you should do your own research when it comes to getting contacts in the industry instead of just asking people to give you names and numbers (like you were doing in that other thread).

As for bashing the production of the existing programming, all I can say is that I've seen your Mika videos and they aren't exactly "The Matrix" either. Don't get me wrong, the videos are fine as pool production goes, but they certainly didn't strike me as anything revolutionary (or evolutionary for that matter).

Wow, where did this come from?

I asked a simple question and you flammed me. And for that matter, where did I ever say anything about being comparable to the Matrix or being revolutionary?

I make my movies because its something I love, and because I thought people could benefit from it. I dont appreciate someone like yourself flamming me over my efforts.

And as for doing my own research, I created my business from nothing. I didn't know a single person in the industry 2 years ago when I was still in school. I worked my way up the ladder and did what I needed to do to get the job done. As far as Im concerned, that's an achievement that I should be proud of.

I'd say an apology is due here....but whatever. I'd rather contribute than argue over this anymore.

TV? Foget About It

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