You better hurry and send it to Bill Stock because I have submitted my resume today to Mark Griffin as the new BCAPL consultant.
I'd start by deleting all your Facebook posts stating how great you play.
BCA Open team from TAIWAN disqualified?
- Thread starter Shaka
- Start date
You better hurry and send it to Bill Stock because I have submitted my resume today to Mark Griffin as the new BCAPL consultant.
I'd start by deleting all your Facebook posts stating how great you play.
You better hurry and send it to Bill Stock because I have submitted my resume today to Mark Griffin as the new BCAPL consultant.
I'd start by deleting all your Facebook posts stating how great you play.
No one's stated that, lol. Made me chuckle, tho - thank you
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Not at all, I like everyone else are waiting for that explanation that you offered to finally be delivered so that we can then all make our determination on what we think of the whole situation and its resolution.
Personally though, I was there at the event and LONG before the singles were complete people were talking like crazy about those players from Taiwan and how good they shot. If we all knew about it by the time the big board had begun I am sure the BCAPL had knowledge. I am certainly curious to hear how the players in question were simply left allowed to continue playing in the event, knocking players out of the event, plugging their tokens, until they have finally won the event to only THEN be told they are too good and will not be getting paid.
I think it is very important that the BCAPL explain
1) Why is it that players coming from an international location like Tawain or Spain are not properly assessed by the BCAPL as to which division they should play in? This is not a "new" issue, every single year there are international players in the event that are clearly far above the norm for the open division but since they do not play in America they are largely unknown.
2) Why is it that after many years of people entering the tournament who are too good to have been there and winning large sums of money was it decided that now, with Taiwanese players that the BCAPL was going to go against the precedent they have set of simply paying off the "Bobby Pickle" types of players and suddenly refusing payment?
3) Was the BCAPL aware of the Taiwanese players being very, very good "during" the event as many of the players were? If so why did the BCAPL allow them to continue to play in the event, why did you keep giving them their match cards and make them assume everything was fine and only after they had played through the entire event, spending alot of time, energy, and paying for alot of tokens THEN tell them they are too good and you wont pay?
4) Do you not see the very high level of fault that the BCAPL itseltf has in this situation? It is the BCAPL's lack of ability to police it's own league charters, to properly assess the level of players who enter the divisionalized tournaments in Vegas that led to this situation. You act as if the Taiwanese players are totally at fault but IMO it is the BCAPL who failed to properly assess players that they probably should have assumed might be more then expected given they were coming internationally from a extremely powerful pool nation that rivals the Philippines in depth of talent. You act as if this whole thing surprised you, it is absurd if that is the case, you should have been wary of this before the event even started and keeping a closer eye on things either personally or having a BCAPL employee keeping a close eye on some of the early matches to gague the speed of some of these unknown players so that you could take early action instead of letting things continue right until the end of the event.
The BCAPL year after year simply fails to police this, and TBH it is not that hard to keep an eye on charters and players and perhaps keep an eye on early matches these players play in. The fact is alot of people here on AZB knew what was happening, people watched one of these players drill Danny Smith for cash, the BCAPL though act as if they had no clue right up until the end. Either you DID know and did nothing while the event was taking place, which is quite bad. Or you had no clue and were completely ignorant of what was taking place in your own event, and that is also quite bad. That is the problem with this whole situation. You do NOT take action after the whole tournament is over, you do not let players go through an entire event like that and THEN rip them off by not paying them. You step in early and tell them they are too good and will have to be removed from the event, you do not leave them in to struggle through and win the whole thing and then tell them they are not getting paid. That looks just terrible on this sport, again a tournament rips off some of the players, this time it is a BCAPL event, and your excuse is very weak and you seem to admit nothing of the fault you have in this, and rest assured the BCAPL has alot of fault in letting it all play out the way it did.
All joking aside this is what they need. One person who is reasonably knowledgable about pool and the players could easily track players, chat with league charter owners, scout the early matches of the Vegas events, and figure out who should be in what division. A person whose job it is to track players and make sure the divisions are all properly filled with the correct skill levels is imperitive.
As for the whole "we added the advanced because..." thing the BCA in Vegas had it's peak success when their were two divisions, Open and Masters. Almost everyone in pool I talk to liked that setup the best, the amount of top amatures coming down to compete in Vegas for the masters was huge and it was cool to see the top local players all play against each other. The problem the BCA ran into is they started to ban certain players like Bernie Mikkelson from the Masters while allowing other players like Stan Torangeneau to still play in the masters for years. There was no rime or reason for one of those players to be banned while the other was not, it simply showed the lack of knowledge that the BCA league system had with regards to the various players in their league system.
During the time that Bernie was banned from competing in the BCA in Vegas the pro event was also invite only and he was not invited. So he was ranked as a pro and could not compete in the amatures, but he was not invited to the pro event. That was absurd. If you were clearly classes as too good for the BCA amature event then you SHOULD have been invited to compete in the pro event, that is simply common sense. Now I WILL mention, this was before the buyout of the BCAPL and Mark was not the main guy in charge.
So they go and create the advanced, they create the grand masters, but they watered down the divisions too much and lost alot of the interest from the better players. The bulk of the top players from Calgary did not even go down to the BCAPL this year to compete and the number of them going down has slowly reduced for years ever since the creation of the multiple divisions. It is killing the interest of EVERYONE in going down. Watching the TOP amature players in the nation all compete against each other is a large part of the draw of the event for the top amatures and the lower ranked amatures alike. Everyone wants to see the deep filled divisions of top quality players doing battle and the BCAPL needs to figure out a way to draw all the top players back into coming into Vegas each year like they once did before the splitting of the divisions.
Just a suggestion:
- If the decision is to indeed divide the $18K up to other players in the tourney, would it not make sense to disperse it evenly to all the players that are now going to be bumped to Advanced/Master, but had no real chance of actually winning the tournament?
Top 48, minus the 3 Taiwan players is 45 people or $400 each.
Those 45 players will never have another chance to win the OPEN division.
Personally I played my ass off to get to the top 48, only to face one of the Taiwan Players the first match with no real chance of winning.
- If the decision is to indeed divide the $18K up to other players in the tourney, would it not make sense to disperse it evenly to all the players that are now going to be bumped to Advanced/Master, but had no real chance of actually winning the tournament?
Top 48, minus the 3 Taiwan players is 45 people or $400 each.
Those 45 players will never have another chance to win the OPEN division.
Personally I played my ass off to get to the top 48, only to face one of the Taiwan Players the first match with no real chance of winning.
I was only half joking -- I could/would be the BCAPL consultant for the right price.
I did speak to Mark today in regards to all of this--- and let everyone know he took the time and reached out to me (not that I am anybody - well I will be someone when I am the BCAPL consultant). I may not 100% agree in Mark's decisiions - both the one coming or the ones he has made in the past but one thing Mark never fails at by any percentage is being hands on and truly concerned about his league, his businesses and pool. The world will stop spinning the day Larry Hubbard or Terry Bell or anyone in a position from the APA posts on this board, or from the VNEA or ACS.
-- I will not speak for Mark Griffin but an announcement is coming soon.
And Celtic, I agree -- I told Mark years ago that the Divisions need to go down, not up. The Open player is his bread and butter. This is the largest division - the one he needs to keep fluid. But as players move out of it, they need to feel that they have a reason to come back. That is the big issue that Mark might not ever get past - it is simply the pool player's mentality, and the league player's mentality. They want to get better but they want no one to notice. They want to continue the 'hustle' as long as possible and once they are discovered they will cry a bit and then take their cueball and simply go home.
I did speak to Mark today in regards to all of this--- and let everyone know he took the time and reached out to me (not that I am anybody - well I will be someone when I am the BCAPL consultant). I may not 100% agree in Mark's decisiions - both the one coming or the ones he has made in the past but one thing Mark never fails at by any percentage is being hands on and truly concerned about his league, his businesses and pool. The world will stop spinning the day Larry Hubbard or Terry Bell or anyone in a position from the APA posts on this board, or from the VNEA or ACS.
-- I will not speak for Mark Griffin but an announcement is coming soon.
And Celtic, I agree -- I told Mark years ago that the Divisions need to go down, not up. The Open player is his bread and butter. This is the largest division - the one he needs to keep fluid. But as players move out of it, they need to feel that they have a reason to come back. That is the big issue that Mark might not ever get past - it is simply the pool player's mentality, and the league player's mentality. They want to get better but they want no one to notice. They want to continue the 'hustle' as long as possible and once they are discovered they will cry a bit and then take their cueball and simply go home.
Stuckart,
You must have played your ass off to do that, good job.
I dont understand your logic behind splitting the money up between the 45 players that are going to be moved up to advanced if they did not play against the Taiwan players?
My opinion is the fair thing to do is split the money up between all the players that the Taiwan players beat. Not only beat out of the tournament, but beat into the B side also. I do believe its a total of around 22 players.
My reasoning for that is, those 22 players were directly affected by the taiwan players beating them resulting in them being eliminated or were put on the B side resulting in there tournament being cut short.
It should not matter what the actual players ability was that the Tawain players beat since the divisions are supposed to be somewhat equal in ability anyways.
But, we will wait to see what the BCAPL decides on.
There have been many monster players that won the Open division over the years. All of them have been paid in full. Some *cough*(Bobby Pickle)*cough* lost it all in 48 hours after the tourney.
It doesn't seem fair to not get paid in an event you played in. I would say, pay them and move them up to Masters for any future tournaments. They obviously have that skill level.
Splitting the money amongst the people they beat or players that got into the top 48 seems a bit weird to me.
Besides, nobody said the Taiwan players were not getting paid. Unless I missed something?
If any hand/wrist slapping needs to be done, it's with the BCAPL Operator that sanctions these players. Unless Taiwan has a much better skill level than we do? If these are Open players in Taiwan, I would hate to see their Master players.
It doesn't seem fair to not get paid in an event you played in. I would say, pay them and move them up to Masters for any future tournaments. They obviously have that skill level.
Splitting the money amongst the people they beat or players that got into the top 48 seems a bit weird to me.
Besides, nobody said the Taiwan players were not getting paid. Unless I missed something?
If any hand/wrist slapping needs to be done, it's with the BCAPL Operator that sanctions these players. Unless Taiwan has a much better skill level than we do? If these are Open players in Taiwan, I would hate to see their Master players.
You can't damn the operator in Taiwan. Maybe he doesn't know the difference between a Master player that runs out and an Open player that runs out. From the documentation that I have seen, this has a high possibility of being true. This is probably hard for you to believe.
Celtic,
Made a suggestion to the BCAPL years ago. Seems relevant again. The BCAPL, ACS, VNEA, TAP and APA should hire one person. That persons only job is to join every regional tour. Subscribe to every pool and billiards magazine. Read each on-line publication like AZ. That person would pay attention to names who keep "popping" up again and again. Forward those names to the sanctioning bodies for status determination. If the sanctioning bodies really cared about thinning the "pro's" out of Amateur events, this would help. Never going to get them all but it's a start.
Another point would be to once again determine who and what a professional pool player is. A written statement giving accurate information as to how to determine what makes a player a "pro". Some sanctioning bodies have a list. Some don't. With the advent of regional tours, there is no longer the "enter a tournament with an entry fee of $300 and cash and you're now a pro" thing. Not sure what the answer is but the more we question, the more likely it is we'll get an answer!
Lyn
Jerry,
Understand exactly where you are coming from. My failure was to not play either of the top two players. Or anyone else who was beaten by one of the two. Closest I got was loosing to Luke Thomas for 4th place. He lost to one of them the next round for third. Didn't realize how costly loosing that match would really be!
Lyn
Watchez,
Do you work for BCAPL, CSI, Bad Boys or TAR? You seem to have access to inside information and documentation no one else on this thread except for Mark Griffin has. You knew I was cut out of the prize fund distribution before I did. Just want to know. No anger here. It is what it is!
Lyn
Im sure the BCA is dying to expand their league to all of these countries where pool is thriving. Imagine what the players in those countries will be thinking if the two taiwan players dont get paid.
Still, its pretty clear the system is broken where one year portugal hijacks things, the next its the UK and now Taiwan. The main bread and butter of this event will always be the USA players and you always have to protect the guys who pay the bills.
What a nightmare for the BCA this is. Its pretty clear that no matter what happens, there will be an important group of pissed off people.
Still, its pretty clear the system is broken where one year portugal hijacks things, the next its the UK and now Taiwan. The main bread and butter of this event will always be the USA players and you always have to protect the guys who pay the bills.
What a nightmare for the BCA this is. Its pretty clear that no matter what happens, there will be an important group of pissed off people.
Hmmm, that would be a lil hard to beleive, not impossible though. If he/she doesn't understand pool, they should get some players to fill them in a bit.
If I had my car engine replaced and 2 days later it blew up, I would take it back. I wouldn't care which mechanic worked on it, would hold the Manager/Owner of the shop responsible. It's their responsibilty to have capable workers.
Anyhoo, I'm glad not to be in Marks position. Definitely a tough spot he's in.
I really think some people are making this into a bigger thing than it is.
Our decision has been made and the appropriate checks are being cut (as we speak).
We will notify the affected players and mail them their checks.
I will not get into long debates on the forums. If someone feels they need to know something, they can contact me directly. I also don't have the time to read (or respond) to LONG posts that always make assumptions.
Remember, we know several things about this situation that you don't, and that you will never know because you don't need to know them. We are being as transparent as we feel is proper.
The letter of explanation will also be posted on our website - when the time is proper.
I don't have all the answers - but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!!! LOL
Lighten up you guys -
There is always something gained when situations like this come along.
Mark Griffin
markg@playcsipool.com
702-719-7665
Our decision has been made and the appropriate checks are being cut (as we speak).
We will notify the affected players and mail them their checks.
I will not get into long debates on the forums. If someone feels they need to know something, they can contact me directly. I also don't have the time to read (or respond) to LONG posts that always make assumptions.
Remember, we know several things about this situation that you don't, and that you will never know because you don't need to know them. We are being as transparent as we feel is proper.
The letter of explanation will also be posted on our website - when the time is proper.
I don't have all the answers - but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!!! LOL
Lighten up you guys -
There is always something gained when situations like this come along.
Mark Griffin
markg@playcsipool.com
702-719-7665
Aw C'mom!!! Spill it already.......joking.
If I had to guess, I would say every player that played and lost to one of the top 2 Taiwan players is getting a refund check of $125, same as their entry?
Also, the Taiwan players checks may be $11,000 and $7,000 for 1st and 2nd, minus the amount of the refunded checks to the other players?
Am I close?
No Lyn I don't work for any of those organizations. But I certainly do support them all because generally speaking, in my mind, they do things right or at least justifiably (sp?) right.
But since you seem to notice my knowledge and expertise, can I put you down as a reference for my application as BCAPL consultant?
The BCAPL doesn't pay their operators - they make no money. Unlike the APA where the operator is a paid entity (almost an owner in fact where they can buy/sell the league). That being said, the BCAPL operator is what it is - someone that monitors and can be questioned but I don't think there is a pool knowledge or pool ability analysis test that is required. To use your analogy, which is apples to oranges, the mechanic shop manager does have to have knowledge of engines, cars, etc.
I could start a local BCAPL tomorrow at an old age home, with teams of people that literally can't see the end rail, and tell them all they are Master players. They play against themselves so they really have no idea. Maybe I know nothing about pool except that I like to play at my friends house on his play master table and we usually play cut throat on a Wednesday night. Then my league players fly out to Vega$, play in the Masters Division Singles and the Taiwanese, Portugese, English and Spanish champions all beat them 7-0 and thank them for their donation. The old age folks would be mad at me only - not the BCAPL. So you see the reverse is also the same as probably right now for the Taiwanese players that came out as Open players to be told that in fact they were not.
All this being said -- the BCAPL gives the APA the 5 and the break.
Yes, you would be paid but your rating might change for the next event
And the person that vouched for you might get a stern talking to.