I CANCELLED A SALE-REVIEW/Opinons/FEEDBACK PLEASE

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
One option in a case like that is to call the authorities and have them with you when you meet the person picking up the item.

If they sent the bank via the U S Mail I guarantee the Postal Inspection Service would love a case like that. Easy work for the Postal Inspector.

I wish it was that easy. I called the local police station to set up a sting and was told no crime had been committed until the car was actually taken. They said the bad check was a civil matter. I then called the FBI and was told this type of crime is rampart via the internet and they would take a report if I'd like. No one seemed that concerned about the counterfeit bank check.

I'm sure what they did is a crime but catching/finding them is the the problem. Appears that this is a garden variety crime these days and not high on the list for the authorities to pursue in earnest. I'm just informing those on here to be careful even when accepting "bank checks." What you do with that information is up to you.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
I wish it was that easy. I called the local police station to set up a sting and was told no crime had been committed until the car was actually taken. They said the bad check was a civil matter. I then called the FBI and was told this type of crime is rampart via the internet and they would take a report if I'd like. No one seemed that concerned about the counterfeit bank check.

I'm sure what they did is a crime but catching/finding them is the the problem. Appears that this is a garden variety crime these days and not high on the list for the authorities to pursue in earnest. I'm just informing those on here to be careful even when accepting "bank checks." What you do with that information is up to you.

Speaking of bank checks, the govt shut down a biz I sent money to for no reason it turns out($9,000) so I go to the bank and ask them to stop the check(it hadn't been cashed yet) the bank tells me they know about it and the govt told them they weren't allowed to stop the check(the Gov't had it)

The govt cashes the check and sends me around $4,600 of it back and keeps the rest. Then they proceed to tell me it's income and I have to pay tax on it:yikes:

C@c×s^c%=&s
 

CK6Speed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Who gives a sh!t WHY Duane doesn't do business with new/unknown buyers? It's 100% his choice. He obviously has very good reasons for that policy, and just didn't catch that this was a new user. How likely do you all really think it is that a user completely new to the site, with minimal posts, decides to buy something expensive off a seller here, within a short time of joining the forum?

Not bloody well likely... Not selling to brand new folks, thinking about it that way, is a VERY good policy, when viewed from that angle. A lot of our older members simply aren't comfortable with Paypal protections (which invariably favor the buyer, btw...), and I don't fault Duane in the least for backing out, as long as he refunds the payment.

Those other folks talking crap, you are free to start selling expensive cues on here and to do business with all the new/unknown folks you like on here. Tell us how that works out.

I'm just glad Travis Niklich took a chance on me when I was new with zero iTrader and little posts back in 2008. He sold me one of his beautiful 2008 Full Splice signed Blackcreek cues which I paid over $1,000 for via Palpal. He gave my my first iTrader rating. Since then I was able to purchase from various sellers here a 2009 Richard Black for over $2,000, a Caroline Custom, A Ned Morris, Mike Gulyassy made serial number 2 It's George which is #2 our of 10 made, and a Lee Peppers Custom. I still have relatively little posts compared to many. You have to start somewhere.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have to find the thread here-FORBIDDING" Taking friends/family from unknown/new buyers-
I always try do the right thing buying/selling-

If people AREN'T your "friend or family", DON'T "scam" the g'damn system.

That is a "scam" in itself.

Pay the dues and do it the "right' way.
 

CK6Speed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Speaking of bank checks, the govt shut down a biz I sent money to for no reason it turns out($9,000) so I go to the bank and ask them to stop the check(it hadn't been cashed yet) the bank tells me they know about it and the govt told them they weren't allowed to stop the check(the Gov't had it)

The govt cashes the check and sends me around $4,600 of it back and keeps the rest. Then they proceed to tell me it's income and I have to pay tax on it:yikes:

C@c×s^c%=&s

That is just messed up. Welcome to America. :eek:
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Speaking of bank checks, the govt shut down a biz I sent money to for no reason it turns out($9,000) so I go to the bank and ask them to stop the check(it hadn't been cashed yet) the bank tells me they know about it and the govt told them they weren't allowed to stop the check(the Gov't had it)

The govt cashes the check and sends me around $4,600 of it back and keeps the rest. Then they proceed to tell me it's income and I have to pay tax on it:yikes:

C@c×s^c%=&s

No surprise here. My van was parked well off the side of the road on the way to Reno. We were stopped so Keith, Cecil Tugwell, Bill Mielke and I could get out and take a piss. An Army 'Deuce and a Half' truck slid off the icy road and plowed into us, just after we (all except Cecil) had gotten back into the van. We all escaped with our lives (injured but none seriously) but my van was destroyed.

It took my attorney several months to get the U.S. government to pay for the van, but they refused to pay for any of our medical care. My attorney told me that we had no chance trying to sue the Feds! I should take the settlement and forget about the rest. Keith's medical bills alone were over $900 and I paid them. He was the most seriously hurt with a broken arm. Bill Mielke and I were both given pain killers and neck braces, and told to go home and rest.

In your situation you have little recourse unfortunately. Big Brother is really BIG! And we're not. :frown:
 
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jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
No surprise here. My van was parked well off the side of the road on the way to Reno. We were stopped so Keith, Cecil Tugwell, Bill Mielke and I could get out and take a piss. An Army 'Deuce and a Half' truck slid off the icy road and plowed into us, just after we (all except Cecil) had gotten back into the van. We all escaped with our lives (injured but none seriously) but my van was destroyed.

It took my attorney several months to get the U.S. government to pay for the van, but they refused to pay for any of our medical care. My attorney told me that we had no chance trying to sue the Feds! I should take the settlement and forget about the rest. Keith's medical bills alone were over $900 and I paid them. He was the most seriously hurt with a broken arm. Bill Mielke and I were both given pain killers and neck braces, and told to go home and rest.

In your situation you have little recourse unfortunately. Big Brother is really BIG! And we're not. :frown:

So true.

That biz already had 1k from me and I had made a few hundred, so in total 10k in cash plus some profit. All in all the G got around $7,000 of it. Not a damn thing i could do about it.
 

Buster8001

Did you say shrubberies?
Silver Member
Not necessarily true Buster. The reason that I offer the option of a U.S. Postal Money Order to my customers, is for their protection. If I were to hose someone (which I have never, and will never do) who has paid me via USPMO, is that shorty thereafter, I would likely receive a visit from a U.S. Federal Marshall. They don't play.

I wish it worked that way, j2pac. I, unfortunately, have been scammed with USPMOs. If I remember correctly, it was around $600. Years ago, when I was into Magic the Gathering cards. USPS never lifted a finger; even after I filled out the book of fraud paperwork. I was on the phone with local and national offices for over a year before I finally called it a juicy loss-burger. They wouldn't lift a finger for what amounts to petty larceny.

Again, it's almost 2020; people need to get on board with electronic payments. I stand by my statement. Unless I'm face-to-face and cash-to-hand, I completely walk away from someone trying to suggest anything other, nowadays.
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Aficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
Duane has proven himself to be a reliable and honest Trader you can't get to 104 all positive feedbacks while being a bad guy

Using friends and family option on PayPal in my opinion is not a good practice however in this case the seller would have zero exposure and I think Duane was unaware of that - he just remembered reading in a previous thread on az that using the friends and family option was not recommended but those were usually aimed at buyers who would have no recourse if they didn't get what they ordered

To me, posting this thread for advice, is a sign that Duane didn't feel right about how their deal went. It shows he has a conscience, imo.

Since the buyer still appears to be interested I think it would be appropriate for Duane to follow through with their deal.

I'm a big fan of all's well that ends well

Hopefully you guys will salvage your deal
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Silver Member
Not necessarily true Buster. The reason that I offer the option of a U.S. Postal Money Order to my customers, is for their protection. If I were to hose someone (which I have never, and will never do) who has paid me via USPMO, is that shorty thereafter, I would likely receive a visit from a U.S. Federal Marshall. They don't play.

Mail fraud includes wire fraud. Same federal protection and enforcement, providing it is intetstate or international transaction.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
I'm just glad Travis Niklich took a chance on me when I was new with zero iTrader and little posts back in 2008. He sold me one of his beautiful 2008 Full Splice signed Blackcreek cues which I paid over $1,000 for via Palpal. He gave my my first iTrader rating. Since then I was able to purchase from various sellers here a 2009 Richard Black for over $2,000, a Caroline Custom, A Ned Morris, Mike Gulyassy made serial number 2 It's George which is #2 our of 10 made, and a Lee Peppers Custom. I still have relatively little posts compared to many. You have to start somewhere.

Trudat, trudat.. I was simply being the devil's advocate. I do believe all explanations to the contrary, that a lot of our older members simply aren't comfortable with digital-only monetary transactions.. The more that comes out though, Duane might have just gotten cold feet, at no fault of the buyer.

Personally, if my money got returned to me, I simply would never have really batted an eye. He was trying to lowball Duane a bit, and that seems rampant on AZBilliards, so I really don't fault Duane too much here, but I guess I am in the minority...
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is my opinion worth 2 cents:)

1) I believe the seller cancelled the deal because he was worried of a scam. I 100% do not believe he cancelled because he was not happy with the agreed upon price.

2a) I read through every single of the buyer's 15 posts. Half of them are in this thread, and the other half are all to buy or sell an item. Not a single post was for regular pool talk. Only buying and selling talk.

2b) As a seller, I would be a bit concerned I was getting scammed, if there was a brand new member (with about 8 posts at the time of the sale), and every one of his 8 posts was asking to buy an item on here, or to sell an item that he owns.

3) I don't believe the buyer was looking to scam anyone. Reading his posts he sounds like a regular guy to me.

4) I think the seller was simply unsure of the buyer, and cautious, and therefore decided to cancel the deal instead of risking losing $575, which IMO, is a ton of money to be out on a scam. Its one thing to lose that in a gambling session, but to be outright robbed of $575 is 100 times worse.

5a) There are TONS of scammers who use PayPal. The way it works, is they buy an item, receive said item, and then file a claim with PP that they never received it. PP usually sides with the buyer, and the seller is out. This is WITH paying as a goods and service. It sound to me like the seller was worried about a scam like this. Now, paying with friends and family, usually means once the money payment is made, it can't be requested back by the buyer. I believe the seller did not know the distinction between the two, and was worried the buyer might do something like that.

5b) Another way to scam with PP is paying via an echeck. I think the buyer can cancel it before it clears, which is roughly 5 business day. If the seller ships in that time, he is out the money.

6) I despise paying PayPal 3%. I think its stupid! Why should they get 3% of every cut? PayPal and eBay were the same company for 10 years. The 3% was so eBay would get a listing fee for any item sold/listed, plus a cut of the payment. I'd rather trust the person I'm doing business with, and have them pay me, or me pay them, with friends and family. If the person is a good scammer, they will find a way to get over on you regardless of how they pretend to pay you. Hell, you could meet someone to sell an item in person in cash, they can hit you over the head, take your item, keep their cash, and rob your wallet on top of that. If I was making a transaction with someone on here with no feedback, but a lot of posts, I'd read some of the posts and I think I could figure out quickly enough if the guy was full of shit or now, and whether I wanted to take a chance.

7) I really don't think either buyer or seller did wrong. Seller was simply uneasy and decided to protect himself.

8) Now that we got here, and have heard more from the buyer and seller, and both meant no harm and wanted to make the deal, I say they should resume the deal. If the buyer turns out to be a scammer after all this, then I'll eat my hat!

Good luck to all:)
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
6) I despise paying PayPal 3%. I think its stupid! Why should they get 3% of every cut? PayPal and eBay were the same company for 10 years. The 3% was so eBay would get a listing fee for any item sold/listed, plus a cut of the payment.

Whether you despise it, or not, it is their service and they are due compensation for people using it. I'm not going to argue how much it should be because that is their choice. As long as they have customers, they will adjust their prices as needed in order to suit their profit margins.

If people don't like paying the charges, they shouldn't use the service. Simple as that.
 

BJTyler747

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is my opinion worth 2 cents:)

1) I believe the seller cancelled the deal because he was worried of a scam. I 100% do not believe he cancelled because he was not happy with the agreed upon price.

2a) I read through every single of the buyer's 15 posts. Half of them are in this thread, and the other half are all to buy or sell an item. Not a single post was for regular pool talk. Only buying and selling talk.

2b) As a seller, I would be a bit concerned I was getting scammed, if there was a brand new member (with about 8 posts at the time of the sale), and every one of his 8 posts was asking to buy an item on here, or to sell an item that he owns.

3) I don't believe the buyer was looking to scam anyone. Reading his posts he sounds like a regular guy to me.

4) I think the seller was simply unsure of the buyer, and cautious, and therefore decided to cancel the deal instead of risking losing $575, which IMO, is a ton of money to be out on a scam. Its one thing to lose that in a gambling session, but to be outright robbed of $575 is 100 times worse.

5a) There are TONS of scammers who use PayPal. The way it works, is they buy an item, receive said item, and then file a claim with PP that they never received it. PP usually sides with the buyer, and the seller is out. This is WITH paying as a goods and service. It sound to me like the seller was worried about a scam like this. Now, paying with friends and family, usually means once the money payment is made, it can't be requested back by the buyer. I believe the seller did not know the distinction between the two, and was worried the buyer might do something like that.

5b) Another way to scam with PP is paying via an echeck. I think the buyer can cancel it before it clears, which is roughly 5 business day. If the seller ships in that time, he is out the money.

6) I despise paying PayPal 3%. I think its stupid! Why should they get 3% of every cut? PayPal and eBay were the same company for 10 years. The 3% was so eBay would get a listing fee for any item sold/listed, plus a cut of the payment. I'd rather trust the person I'm doing business with, and have them pay me, or me pay them, with friends and family. If the person is a good scammer, they will find a way to get over on you regardless of how they pretend to pay you. Hell, you could meet someone to sell an item in person in cash, they can hit you over the head, take your item, keep their cash, and rob your wallet on top of that. If I was making a transaction with someone on here with no feedback, but a lot of posts, I'd read some of the posts and I think I could figure out quickly enough if the guy was full of shit or now, and whether I wanted to take a chance.

7) I really don't think either buyer or seller did wrong. Seller was simply uneasy and decided to protect himself.

8) Now that we got here, and have heard more from the buyer and seller, and both meant no harm and wanted to make the deal, I say they should resume the deal. If the buyer turns out to be a scammer after all this, then I'll eat my hat!

Good luck to all:)

I agree with most of what you said. It seems that the seller made an honest mistake and the buyer was not out to scam anyone. However, if you make a deal and there is no evidence of fraud or other shenanigans, then it is your (moral and professional) obligation to follow through. I see this as no different than making a bet, and then unilaterally canceling it after the fact.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whether you despise it, or not, it is their service and they are due compensation for people using it. I'm not going to argue how much it should be because that is their choice. As long as they have customers, they will adjust their prices as needed in order to suit their profit margins.

If people don't like paying the charges, they shouldn't use the service. Simple as that.

I see your point.

One thing I believe about pp for sales is the 3% fee is meant for people selling on eBay or legit merchant ecommerce sites. I kind of think on a site like ours, a sale between two parties of a used cue stick really falls under friends and family, and would not be breaking PayPal "rules". I could very well be wrong on that.

Also, there are several services other than paypal that are free. Apple Pay, Facebook Pay, Venmo (which is owned by PayPal I believe), Square Cash, and more. I'm a landlord as a side job and some of my tenants pay me in Venmo and Square Cash. I probably got paid 30K that way in the past couple of years, and neither I nor my tenants ever paid a dime in fees.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
I agree with most of what you said. It seems that the seller made an honest mistake and the buyer was not out to scam anyone. However, if you make a deal and there is no evidence of fraud or other shenanigans, then it is your (moral and professional) obligation to follow through. I see this as no different than making a bet, and then unilaterally canceling it after the fact.

But, before the playing starts. Or before the game that you're betting on starts. Happens all the time, and nobody generally thinks the guy who backs out before a ball is hit is a sh!tbird. And that's what the case really is. Even Judge Judy pretty much always give one party the option to pay the money back, or give up the goods. Usually doesn't make a difference to her, which is which.

Personally, I feel it's his transaction to cancel any time he sees fit, up to the time the cue is shipped, and for any reason. Nobody is "getting hurt" either way, as long as the payment is returned in full. So nobody in the future has anything whatsoever to be "leery" about with Duane, as long as he returns the money promptly.

Really, no one is getting hurt here. It's a pool cue. I don't judge you for being upset, but there's been plenty of times I called someone off Craigslist, told em I am on the way with the money, and the item is gone when I get there, and all I get is a "Sorry, man.. They had the money ready to go..." Dem's the breaks, sometimes. Oh, but I WILL say this....... Those who try to get the seller down on prices as a habit... DON'T be surprised if this happens to you a lot. If you had paid what he originally asked, 100% chance this thread does not occur. :-D

Either way, I hope it works out.
 
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HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But, before the playing starts. Or before the game that you're betting on starts. Happens all the time, and nobody generally thinks the guy who backs out before a ball is hit is a sh!tbird. And that's what the case really is. Even Judge Judy pretty much always give one party the option to pay the money back, or give up the goods. Usually doesn't make a difference to her, which is which.

Personally, I feel it's his transaction to cancel any time he sees fit, up to the time the cue is shipped, and for any reason. Nobody is "getting hurt" either way, as long as the payment is returned in full. So nobody in the future has anything whatsoever to be "leery" about with Duane, as long as he returns the money promptly.

Really, no one is getting hurt here. It's a pool cue. I don't judge you for being upset, but there's been plenty of times I called someone off Craigslist, told em I am on the way with the money, and the item is gone when I get there, and all I get is a "Sorry, man.. They had the money ready to go..." Dem's the breaks, sometimes. Oh, but I WILL say this....... Those who try to get the seller down on prices as a habit... DON'T be surprised if this happens to you a lot. If you had paid what he originally asked, 100% chance this thread does not occur. :-D

Either way, I hope it works out.

Hypothetical scenario.

Buyer is eyeing two different cues and wants to purchase one.

Decides on seller (a).

Sends seller (a) money and expects to get cue.

Seller (a) reneges on deal and sends money back.

Buyer goes back to buy cue from seller (b), but that cue is now sold.

Seller (a) has tied up buyer's time and money for no reason and caused the buyer to miss an opportunity to buy the other cue from seller (b)..

I've seen this happen on a car sale before.
 
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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Hypothetical scenario.

Buyer is eyeing two different cues and wants to purchase one.

Decides on seller (a).

Sends seller (a) money and expects to get cue.

Seller (a) reneges on deal and sends money back.

Buyer goes back to buy cue from seller (b), but that cue is now sold.

Seller (a) has tied up buyer's time and money for no reason and caused the buyer to miss an opportunity to buy the other cue from seller (b)..

I've seen this happen on a car sale before.

And I'd be sympathetic..... If this were anything other than a 100% luxury item.
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Man,
that's all I was thinking-
I sell with friends and family I have no recourse-
AND I WAS WRONG!
That is all I was trying to do here in the thread THAT I STARTED"
-GET SOME ASSISTANCE/ADVICE IS ALL"
Thanks

Here is some advice: if you enter into a contract, fulfill it.

For a contract to be legally binding it must contain four essential elements:

an offer

an acceptance

an intention to create a legal relationship

a consideration (usually money).

However it may still be considered invalid if it:

entices someone to commit a crime, or is illegal

is entered into by someone that lacks capacity, such as a minor or bankrupt

was agreed through misleading or deceptive conduct, duress, unconscionable conduct or undue influence.

All of the elements of a contract were there, and none of the disqualifying factors were present. You would be found in breach, in the very unlikely event this came to a legal adjudification. And it wouldn't be close.
 
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