"Diamondizing" a Gold Crown III.. In Germany

ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
Artemis on GC is just a bad idea imo.
Let's ask Mark. :D
The contact area grabs too much. No matter what you do.
OK when the cloth is still new.
Not when it gets old.

SuperSpeed banks just as well when the cloth wears out.
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See what iusedtoberich says... I don't particularly care whether the banking is perfect over the life of the cloth.. As long as the table plays as close as possible to the DCC Diamonds. I haven't seen consistent opinions that the Artemis rails on Gold Crowns naturally sit higher or lower than they do on a Diamond, so it seems to me they would play fairly close. If that means that the Diamonds bank different when the cloth is worn than when new, then I am fine with that.

Given that I have had my foot on the throat of the few pros I have played in One Pocket at DCC, and let them get away in part due to lack of quality bank practice, I just wanted to come to Derby with a "feel for the banking zone", as it applies to the rails on the Diamonds. I haven't seen a strong case that Superspeeds bank extremely close to Diamonds, so once we get to that point, the argument now becomes, "If I put Artemis on instead, will it bank closer to a Diamond, or will it bank jacked up?

I haven't seen a strong case that it will be bank jacked up, and I have seen multiple opinions from people that have put on Artemis rails with no subrail modification, and been extremely happy with how the table plays. Given that I have not seen a super strong case that Gold Crowns with Artemis rails bank poorly, then I am fine with being the guineau pig and making up my own mind. If it doesn't work out and the table banks noticeably poorly, I will report my results, and I will just try again with Superspeeds.

Remember: Artemis is a German product, and these rails are significantly cheaper to get here than in the states. So, it's not like I am breaking the bank by giving them a try.
 
jtompilot

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
How do red labels bank compared to blue labels?
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Reds bank much shorter. I’ve played on a few that banked the same as a blue and the room manager said they were modified to blue specs.

I will say I think my GC4 banks pretty close to a blue on most soft to moderate speed banks. You can still shorten a blue more than my GC4.

I would like to know if I bought a new top from Jerimy Chambers with Artemis ic66 (K55) if it would Bank just like a Diamond Blue label
 
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bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
jtompilot said:
I would like to know if I bought a new top from Jerimy Chambers with Artemis ic66 (K55) if it would Bank just like a Diamond Blue label
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Not exactly like a Diamond, but about as close as you will get, without a foolish amount of additional work. Jerimy is producing a fantastic product. Go for it
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
ShortBusRuss said:
See what iusedtoberich says... I don't particularly care whether the banking is perfect over the life of the cloth.. As long as the table plays as close as possible to the DCC Diamonds. I haven't seen consistent opinions that the Artemis rails on Gold Crowns naturally sit higher or lower than they do on a Diamond, so it seems to me they would play fairly close. If that means that the Diamonds bank different when the cloth is worn than when new, then I am fine with that.
Click to expand...

Red label Diamonds have a sub-rail height of 1 3/4". Blue label Diamonds and Gold Crowns have a sub-rail height of 1 11/16".

Artemis cushions, installed with the rounded side down (as they are on a Diamond) bank short and springy. Doesn't matter what table you put them on. So long as the sub-rail height is 1 11/16", with your nose height set at 1 29/64", you'll be about as close as you're ever going to get.
 
ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
bradsh98 said:
Red label Diamonds have a sub-rail height of 1 3/4". Blue label Diamonds and Gold Crowns have a sub-rail height of 1 11/16".

Artemis cushions, installed with the rounded side down (as they are on a Diamond) bank short and springy. Doesn't matter what table you put them on. So long as the sub-rail height is 1 11/16", with your nose height set at 1 29/64", you'll be about as close as you're ever going to get.
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So, I take this to me that the Artemis Intercontinental #66 will play approximately the same on a Gold Crown III as on a Diamond Blue Label?

If so, I am good widdit.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
bradsh98 said:
Red label Diamonds have a sub-rail height of 1 3/4". Blue label Diamonds and Gold Crowns have a sub-rail height of 1 11/16".

Artemis cushions, installed with the rounded side down (as they are on a Diamond) bank short and springy. Doesn't matter what table you put them on. So long as the sub-rail height is 1 11/16", with your nose height set at 1 29/64", you'll be about as close as you're ever going to get.
Click to expand...

Uh, oh. Can of worms.
I take it you like Artemis hump side up like two mechs I know.
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
Uh, oh. Can of worms.
I take it you like Artemis hump side up like two mechs I know.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I have never installed Artemis rubber with the rounded side up. Everyone that I install Artemis cushions for, wants their table to play like a Diamond. For that to be so, the rounded side needs to be installed facing down.

I have repeatedly expressed on this forum, my strong dislike for the way that Artemis cushions play, when installed with the rounded side down. The opinions differ on why they play funny, or whether they indeed do play funny.

I have talked to a couple of table technicians who claim to have installed Artemis cushions with the rounded side up. They also claim that the rounded side up banks much more natural and consistent. These are claims which I cannot personally verify, though the claims do match my hypothesis.

Regardless, if you want your Gold Crown III to play like a Diamond, the best place to start is by installing Artemis cushions, rounded side down.
 
J

J. Chambers

Member
Wow! im so sorry I didn't see this earlier.......... Flat out truth I don't care what anyone has to say!!!!! If you want a Gold Crown to rebound exactly like a Diamond then the rails have to be constructed from ground up. Diamond makes butcher block style rails with hardwoods. Brunswick Gold Crown 1-2-3 came from factory made with Poplar wood. It is not as dense. The harmonic transfer through the rails will not be the same as a Diamond no matter what cushion is used! The anchor system also has to be as Diamonds is. No one will notice the difference between 3 or 4 rail bolts when done properly. You will also have to install Artemis Intercontinental like Diamond does. Use The same facings and presto! same playability besides slate shelf etc. Unfortunately I'm sure this will sound to some like I'm trying to sell a job here...... Not at all! I just want you to know this is not rocket science! Don't let your head spin. What your looking for can be accomplished but you will have to start from scratch if thats what you so desire.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
J. Chambers said:
Wow! im so sorry I didn't see this earlier.......... Flat out truth I don't care what anyone has to say!!!!! If you want a Gold Crown to rebound exactly like a Diamond then the rails have to be constructed from ground up. Diamond makes butcher block style rails with hardwoods. Brunswick Gold Crown 1-2-3 came from factory made with Poplar wood. It is not as dense. The harmonic transfer through the rails will not be the same as a Diamond no matter what cushion is used! The anchor system also has to be as Diamonds is. No one will notice the difference between 3 or 4 rail bolts when done properly. You will also have to install Artemis Intercontinental like Diamond does. Use The same facings and presto! same playability besides slate shelf etc. Unfortunately I'm sure this will sound to some like I'm trying to sell a job here...... Not at all! I just want you to know this is not rocket science! Don't let your head spin. What your looking for can be accomplished but you will have to start from scratch if thats what you so desire.
Click to expand...

I agree, but a 5 rail bolt system is pretty darn solid.
 
ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
So.. got pictures from the German mechanic. I did end up buying a Gold Crown III, and the Artemis Intercontinental rails.

Realkingcobra talked me through communicating the "Diamondization" specs, and here are the preliminary results. It was always gonna be hit and miss, but all other Gold Crowns here in Germany get tightened by double/triple shimming.
 

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ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
More pics below..
 

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iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow, that's great! Glad you got what you wanted. Is the mechanic doing the work at his shop, and then bringing the table to you?
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
Not hating, but, for how much conversation has went into this: from the looks of the work, I somehow doubt that table will play anything like a Diamond....

Canvas backed impregnated rubber facings? the added wood on the side pockets is no where near even and will most likely interfere with the pocket. Picture #3, what did they cut that cushion with?? it is not even with the extension and does not follow the down angle of the rail. chunks missing from the subrail when they removed the cushion. are they/ did they remove all the old adhesive before mounting the new cushions. Are they planning on cutting out the space for the feather strip on the corners? how will the cloth be wrapped around the corners? over the top of the extension?

I would like to see more "finished" pictures, I hope that is not the end product.

Trent from Toledo
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
trentfromtoledo said:
Not hating, but, for how much conversation has went into this: from the looks of the work, I somehow doubt that table will play anything like a Diamond....

Canvas backed impregnated rubber facings? the added wood on the side pockets is no where near even and will most likely interfere with the pocket. Picture #3, what did they cut that cushion with?? it is not even with the extension and does not follow the down angle of the rail. chunks missing from the subrail when they removed the cushion. are they/ did they remove all the old adhesive before mounting the new cushions. Are they planning on cutting out the space for the feather strip on the corners? how will the cloth be wrapped around the corners? over the top of the extension?

I would like to see more "finished" pictures, I hope that is not the end product.

Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...

Idk... I agree the work does not look as clean as what Glen shows pictures of. But it should work much better than shims. I think at some point, you have to say "this is what I'm going to get", and be done with it. I bet the final product will be good enough for Russ to give the pro's a beatdown at DCC:grin-square::grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
Idk... I agree the work does not look as clean as what Glen shows pictures of. But it should work much better than shims. I think at some point, you have to say "this is what I'm going to get", and be done with it. I bet the final product will be good enough for Russ to give the pro's a beatdown at DCC:grin-square::grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:
Click to expand...

I will refrain from hating, but, it aint gonna play like a Diamond that is for sure.

I wonder what the angles are on the corners and sides. lets see a protractor on them :)

Trent from Toledo
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
The pockets look like 4 3/8" corners by 4 3/4" sides.. Hard to tell, with the poor lighting.

Trent's criticism may seem a bit strong, but I agree with his assessment. It doesn't appear that the factory angles were changed at all. Not only that, there are hammer dimples in the wood extensions, which will leave voids behind the thin facings. I'm going to guess that those pockets will play poorly, for a variety of reasons.

That said, I hope that the technician who performed the work has learned something from the experience. Being his first time doing this type of work, the challenge is understandable. Something like this may be better suited for a woodworker. Woodworkers may not necessarily understand pool tables, but they typically understand precision. Even a lot of pool table 'fitters' don't necessarily understand precision. Hell, most don't even understand pool tables.
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
bradsh98 said:
The pockets look like 4 3/8" corners by 4 3/4" sides.. Hard to tell, with the poor lighting.

Trent's criticism may seem a bit strong, but I agree with his assessment. It doesn't appear that the factory angles were changed at all. Not only that, there are hammer dimples in the wood extensions, which will leave voids behind the thin facings. I'm going to guess that those pockets will play poorly, for a variety of reasons.

That said, I hope that the technician who performed the work has learned something from the experience. Being his first time doing this type of work, the challenge is understandable. Something like this may be better suited for a woodworker. Woodworkers may not necessarily understand pool tables, but they typically understand precision. Even a lot of pool table 'fitters' don't necessarily understand precision. Hell, most don't even understand pool tables.
Click to expand...

I was trying not to be harsh.
Even using the wrong material & size facings will make a huge difference.
We all live and learn, that is for sure!

Trent from Toledo
 
J

J. Chambers

Member
Ok. From looking at the pictures its clear he is learning a bit and thats ok we all have to started somewhere. I'm sure he's doing the best he can and has a world of pressure. But he will need to trim back the subrail extensions. They protrude too deeply into the pockets. Tell him to trim them off at the back of the featherstrip groove or else he won't be able to wrap the cloth well and will have to trim away some of the pocket or gully boot. I honestly hope that it all turns out very well and your happy cause thats all that matters. But if it doesn't and you can't deal with the playability difference. I will make a set of rails to the specs your looking for and ship them to you to install. We would have to come together to some kind of agreement with shipping costs but you could try them for free. Obviously if you wanted to keep them I would expect payment, but if you didn't you could send them back no charge. we would just have to figure out shipping costs percentages to make it a fair transaction. Other than that I hope they turn out great and your very pleased with the work he is doing. Best of luck out there!
 
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