Sinking the 8 early

Cameron Smith · May 16, 2006

I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

Chris · May 16, 2006

Cameron Smith said:
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I don't have an opinion on changing the rule, but I will say that is my least favorite way to end a game, win or lose.

Cameron Smith · May 16, 2006

I agree it is such a bittersweet win when it happens, it is anti-climatic for anyone watching, and it simply sucks when it happens to you.

Harvywallbanger · May 16, 2006

Agreed...now how do we change it?

While were at it what about the scratch on the 8 you loose rule. Ball in hand should be sufficient enough for this as well, right?

lewdo26 · May 16, 2006

I don't like the change. The weaker player will pocket the 8 early much more often than a stronger player. I think it adds to the complexity of the game - breaking out clusters with precision, playing with 5 pockets due to a hanging 8 ball, etc.

seiyaryu55 · May 16, 2006

I agree in both terms. I hate it when somehow i miss position or something and then the cue ball accidently bumps into another ball and then its like a chain reaction and next thing i know the 8 ball is in the pocket.....

BUT that doesnt happen to me very often. In fact against beginners i like to play around and nudge the 8 closer to a pocket that i wont be using. Then when they bang balls around its almost like an instant win. Teaches them not to bang balls around carelessly.

I wouldnt change the rule though. If you really are better than the other then you may lose the rack but youll still win the match.

Subsonic2u · May 16, 2006

8 early u lose

While an early 8 in not a nice way to win or lose, I think it is an important part of the game. A quality player seldom has an early 8 and it definately teaches the bangers to get a stroke and go for a shot/position rather than just bang the balls around. There is not a better way for a banger to learn, than to lose by not making carefully planned shots.

As for a scratch on the 8, it should b a definate loss. Most any quality player can avoid a scratch. Another part of the game. That's how u learn what to do and what not to do.

Have we come so far that we don't want to take responsibility for our own actions, EVEN on a pool table? I can hear it now! It's not my fault, I was mistreated as a child and I should not b punished for an early 8. I want a do over. Grow up, it's what makes the game exciting. Next thing people will b wanting to try a shot a second time if they miss on the first try. Facing the consequences is possibly the most important teacher for those who are not careful. If u are willing to bang your balls, u might have to face the agony of defeat.

JoeyInCali · May 16, 2006

It's a loss according to BCA rules.
Scratching on the 8 without making it is not a loss according to BCA though.
Also, if you make the 8 on the break, it's not a win according to BCA.

GADawg · May 16, 2006

Subsonic2u said:
While an early 8 in not a nice way to win or lose, I think it is an important part of the game. A quality player seldom has an early 8 and it definately teaches the bangers to get a stroke and go for a shot/position rather than just bang the balls around. There is not a better way for a banger to learn, than to lose by not making carefully planned shots.

As for a scratch on the 8, it should b a definate loss. Most any quality player can avoid a scratch. Another part of the game. That's how u learn what to do and what not to do.

I agree. Treating the 8 with respect while trying to make the other balls is an integral part of the game, as is not scratching while shooting the 8.

I think however that in BCA rules a scratch while shooting the 8 is not loss of game if you do not make the 8 on the shot. It is a BIH foul. If you make the 8 and scratch, it is loss of game.

Jude Rosenstock · May 16, 2006

Cameron Smith said:
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I happen to play a lot of 8-ball and use the early-eight rule to my advantage more often in a strategical sense than I am the bearer of misfortune. It is the ultimate blocker and can be positioned infront of pockets that your opponent may need. In sum, it adds to the strategy of the game. Without it, 8-ball becomes far more offensive game. The intricacies that many players are attracted to would be significantly reduced. I do admit, watching a player lose because of an improbable carom is disheartening but it's a worthy trade-of (IMHO) for what that rule adds.

Colin Colenso · May 16, 2006

The punishment should fit the crime, or the magnitude of the error in this case.

I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player.

Most fouls at higher levels will result in loss of game anyway, but at least the opponent has to earn it.

Subsonic2u · May 16, 2006

I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player
----------

Better player?? A "better player" does not lose control of his balls. His Q ball does not bang into other balls unless he plays it that way. The best players in my area rarely have an early 8 or scratch on the 8. They know where their ball is going and that is what makes them a better player. They hit their ball just hard enough to make the shot and get position on the next ball. They do not bang the Q ball and watch it caroom wildly around the table hitting every ball in sight. It's called position play and speed control. That is what makes them good.

The players that have the most early 8s and scratches are the bangers. The newer players that lack the knowledge of position play. They hit every shot hard and the Q travels around the table knocking balls everywhere. No wonder they get early 8s. I c them going for a shot and I'm just sitting there watching, knowing full well they are going to scratch. Yet they are oblivious to what is about to happen. A quality player knows where his ball will go and will use draw, follow, or side spin to avoid a scratch and get position. Until the bangers learn position play and speed control, they deserve to lose for an early 8. Eventually they will learn that banging the Q ball causes them to lose. Only then will they move up a notch and use position play and speed control. As long as a banger keeps winning, he thinks he is a great player.

It's George Old Owner · May 16, 2006

wouldn't it be fun if the main aim of 8ball is to pot the 8 to win!
i can just forsee that every1 would just blast the balls ard the 8 every time

supergreenman · May 16, 2006

Cameron Smith said:
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I don't agree, learn to control whitey and you don't have to worry about it.

My $0.02 Canadian(worth more and more every day)

juanbond · May 17, 2006

Cameron Smith said:
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I can see this side of the argument...perhaps it would make for an interesting alternative set of 8-ball rules. I certainly remember a few league games in which this situation bit me in the ass!

I still think that losing when making the eight early is the most fitting rule for this most excellent billiards game (and my favorite along with 1P). Like someone previously said, it adds to the complexity of the game; there's added precision/forethought required to avoid sinking the eight early. I think of it as a counterpart to making the nine early in nine-ball. In nine ball (one of my least favorite games), you can win by slopping in the nine. In eight ball, you don't have this luxury. I think this is the way it should be. I like this anti-ball-banger rule. It gives that devilish, black eight ball a wonderfully ominous status in the game.

Colin Colenso · May 17, 2006

Subsonic2u said:
I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player
----------

Better player?? A "better player" does not lose control of his balls. His Q ball does not bang into other balls unless he plays it that way. The best players in my area rarely have an early 8 or scratch on the 8. They know where their ball is going and that is what makes them a better player. They hit their ball just hard enough to make the shot and get position on the next ball. They do not bang the Q ball and watch it caroom wildly around the table hitting every ball in sight. It's called position play and speed control. That is what makes them good.

The players that have the most early 8s and scratches are the bangers. The newer players that lack the knowledge of position play. They hit every shot hard and the Q travels around the table knocking balls everywhere. No wonder they get early 8s. I c them going for a shot and I'm just sitting there watching, knowing full well they are going to scratch. Yet they are oblivious to what is about to happen. A quality player knows where his ball will go and will use draw, follow, or side spin to avoid a scratch and get position. Until the bangers learn position play and speed control, they deserve to lose for an early 8. Eventually they will learn that banging the Q ball causes them to lose. Only then will they move up a notch and use position play and speed control. As long as a banger keeps winning, he thinks he is a great player.

The situation I was thinking about in particular is when a good player has only the 8 ball left. And attempting to pot it out of a snooker makes a scratch. There is already a big advantage to the player with balls remaining in that situation without the scratch loss factor.

Anyway, you and Jude make some good points.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if the rules stayed as they are. It's still a great game and a lot of tweaking wouldn't do much to improve it.

Colin

Billy_Bob · May 17, 2006

There is a "disconnect" between 8-ball rules and 9-ball rules.

Maybe it would be better if 8-ball was more like 9-ball
or 9-ball was more like 8-ball?

Maybe legal hit and sink the 8 early wins the game? Illegal hit, 8 gets spotted?

Or 9-ball, 9 must be last ball made and an early 9 is a loss?

Anyway I don't know why 9-ball rules are so different from 8-ball rules with respect to the 8 and 9 balls?

I do know one thing though. Anytime you try to change *anything* so far as billiards goes, they will scream bloody murder! They did this when rubber cushions were invented and some wanted to replace the existing "horsehair" stuffed cushions with the new rubber cushions.

Gregg · May 17, 2006

Subsonic2u said:
I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player
----------

Better player?? A "better player" does not lose control of his balls. His Q ball does not bang into other balls unless he plays it that way. The best players in my area rarely have an early 8 or scratch on the 8. They know where their ball is going and that is what makes them a better player. They hit their ball just hard enough to make the shot and get position on the next ball. They do not bang the Q ball and watch it caroom wildly around the table hitting every ball in sight. It's called position play and speed control. That is what makes them good.

The players that have the most early 8s and scratches are the bangers. The newer players that lack the knowledge of position play. They hit every shot hard and the Q travels around the table knocking balls everywhere. No wonder they get early 8s. I c them going for a shot and I'm just sitting there watching, knowing full well they are going to scratch. Yet they are oblivious to what is about to happen. A quality player knows where his ball will go and will use draw, follow, or side spin to avoid a scratch and get position. Until the bangers learn position play and speed control, they deserve to lose for an early 8. Eventually they will learn that banging the Q ball causes them to lose. Only then will they move up a notch and use position play and speed control. As long as a banger keeps winning, he thinks he is a great player.

I agree with everything you said here except the blue text.

Chris · May 17, 2006

Billy_Bob said:
There is a "disconnect" between 8-ball rules and 9-ball rules.

Maybe it would be better if 8-ball was more like 9-ball
or 9-ball was more like 8-ball?

Maybe legal hit and sink the 8 early wins the game? Illegal hit, 8 gets spotted?

Or 9-ball, 9 must be last ball made and an early 9 is a loss?

Anyway I don't know why 9-ball rules are so different from 8-ball rules with respect to the 8 and 9 balls?

I do know one thing though. Anytime you try to change *anything* so far as billiards goes, they will scream bloody murder! They did this when rubber cushions were invented and some wanted to replace the existing "horsehair" stuffed cushions with the new rubber cushions.

They have different rules because they are drastically different games. Eight ball is all about strategy, while nine ball is all about execution.

Personally, I don't like playing nine ball, except as a drill. I would not want eight ball to be made to be more similar to nine ball. Just my opinion.

Andrew Manning · May 17, 2006

Jude Rosenstock said:
I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I happen to play a lot of 8-ball and use the early-eight rule to my advantage more often in a strategical sense than I am the bearer of misfortune. It is the ultimate blocker and can be positioned infront of pockets that your opponent may need. In sum, it adds to the strategy of the game. Without it, 8-ball becomes far more offensive game. The intricacies that many players are attracted to would be significantly reduced. I do admit, watching a player lose because of an improbable carom is disheartening but it's a worthy trade-of (IMHO) for what that rule adds.

Good post, Jude, I totally agree. Saying that making the early-eight a loss of game foul punishes the more aggressive player is like saying water hazards punish the more agressive golfer. The hazard is there, and if you put your ball in it, it's because you made a poor decision or hit your shot poorly. Similarly, the 8-ball is there, and if you knock it in a hole, it's because you made a poor decision, or because you failed to control your cue ball properly. I do agree that it's an unsatisfying way to win and an infuriating way to lose, but removing the loss of game penalty would drastically change the strategy of some racks, and not for the better, in my opinion.

-Andrew

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