A point about those 100 and 200 ball runs!

Snapshot9 · Sep 19, 2007

I am old school, and back in the days, when someone had a big run in Straight Pool, it mattered whether it was from the break or not. That means from the 1st shot. That means you had to make a ball off the first break and then run balls.

Someone that ran a 100+ 'off the break' was held in higher esteem than just someone that had run a 100+, otherwise it is like having a running start before the run if the rack was broke up already.

How many starting break shots do you know that you can make a ball?

Another little thing, in the old days, playing the ghost was done with NO
ball in hand after break, and it was really something if you could beat the ghost back then.

Me, I am for keeping the 'difficulty' in Pool.......why, because it separates the men from the boys, the real players from the wannabees.

Your thoughts?

Irish634 · Sep 19, 2007

Right, wrong, or indifferent, I look at it kind of like golf: It's not how the shots looked that get there, it's how many shots you took that counts.

What I mean is in the end: The guy that hits Driver --> PW then 2 putts has the exact same score as the guy that hits 7-iron --> 7-iron --> PW --> 1 putt.

Blackjack · Sep 19, 2007

The other day I tried to run a hundred balls (not from the break) and it was hard as hell. I think any triple digit run is an accomplishment. My first 100+ run started because of a safety error by my opponent. I will never forget how proud I was afterwards - I had run 117 balls. I think it goes back to the old question - not how, but how many.

I get what you're saying though. I usually start out by tossing 14 on the table and manufacturing a break ball from that scatter. As I said earlier this year, I don't count the first rack of 14 that I run - because I am just trying to get a good break ball, get a feel for the cloth and how the balls are moving. Others have argued that my high run this year of 141 is actually a 155 - but I have always practiced straight pool like this - and to me, it's a 141.

As far as the ghost, I usually do not take ball in hand - unless it's 12 ball.

Bob Jewett · Sep 19, 2007

Snapshot9 said:
I am old school, and back in the days, when someone had a big run in Straight Pool, it mattered whether it was from the break or not. That means from the 1st shot. That means you had to make a ball off the first break and then run balls.

Someone that ran a 100+ 'off the break' was held in higher esteem than just someone that had run a 100+, otherwise it is like having a running start before the run if the rack was broke up already. ... Your thoughts?

I guess I would look at it a lot differently. I think that no top player playing a serious game would ever play a shot out of the rack rather than play safe on the first shot of the game. I have never seen it done in any serious tournament. If someone did try it, the other players would have thought of him as a goof-ball or a freak. I have heard that Mosconi did it under some circumstances, but I doubt that he ever did it in a world championship match.

That's not to say that it's always the wrong shot. In an intramural tournament in college, my doubles partner banked the corner ball back from the full rack three times in a game to 75. Our opponents probably couldn't have won anyway, but this move devastated them. I think my partner may also have figured that they were likely to miss after two shots and then I'd shoot. The table had soft pockets as big as all outdoors.

lfigueroa · Sep 19, 2007

Bob Jewett said:
I guess I would look at it a lot differently. I think that no top player playing a serious game would ever play a shot out of the rack rather than play safe on the first shot of the game. I have never seen it done in any serious tournament. If someone did try it, the other players would have thought of him as a goof-ball or a freak. I have heard that Mosconi did it under some circumstances, but I doubt that he ever did it in a world championship match.

That's not to say that it's always the wrong shot. In an intramural tournament in college, my doubles partner banked the corner ball back from the full rack three times in a game to 75. Our opponents probably couldn't have won anyway, but this move devastated them. I think my partner may also have figured that they were likely to miss after two shots and then I'd shoot. The table had soft pockets as big as all outdoors.

I saw Mosconi several times in SF. On at least one occasion, to start off an exhibition match against a pretty helpless opponent, he played the corner ball bank for the break.

Personally, whenever I'm "going for the record"

I start with a break ball, ala your 14.1 challenge at the DCC. I use to just smack em wide open, but feel this is more legit.

Lou Figueroa

Gerry · Sep 19, 2007

100 is 100, I don't care how you start. If your opponent leaves you tough, a hanger, or a dead one in the pack....I don't care. Once you make one get in line, and run 60, 80, 100 plus.....you are playing straight pool!

I hear "who beat whom" to the shot in your post which is all well and good, but running 100's and beating the other guy to the shot are 2 different worlds IMO.

On a similar note....is 100 in practice worth as much as 100 in a match?

My first 106 and out was in a $ match, and totally unexpected. My high run 127 was in practice and I don't give it as much credence.

My best run IMO was 63 and out in a tourney against someone I wasn't supposed to beat, and Allen Hopkins, Jack C, and Danny B were watching.

Gerry

Pushout · Sep 19, 2007

I was taught "It ain't how many you run, it's who you run them against".

JimS · Sep 19, 2007

Snapshot9 said:
I am old school, and back in the days, when someone had a big run in Straight Pool, it mattered whether it was from the break or not. That means from the 1st shot. That means you had to make a ball off the first break and then run balls.

Someone that ran a 100+ 'off the break' was held in higher esteem than just someone that had run a 100+, otherwise it is like having a running start before the run if the rack was broke up already.

How many starting break shots do you know that you can make a ball?

Another little thing, in the old days, playing the ghost was done with NO
ball in hand after break, and it was really something if you could beat the ghost back then.

Me, I am for keeping the 'difficulty' in Pool.......why, because it separates the men from the boys, the real players from the wannabees.

Your thoughts?

Smacking the full pack and making a ball spreads the rest of them all over the table which makes the first 13 pretty easy pickins.

I like Blackjack's way of counting the run. Throw out 15 balls. Shoot them off leaving a break ball. Rack'm up and start counting w/the break ball being the first ball in the run.

That method truly does keep the difficulty in pool just as you suggest and just as it should be.

CreeDo · Sep 20, 2007

Doesn't make sense to me that this is worth more respect. The guys who do this aren't doing anything special except gambling on a low percentage shot that no serious player would take when there's a lot at stake. As Jim noted, the first thirteen are easy so at least part of the run is easier than a 100 ball run from the racker.

Maybe it takes cojones to try that trickshot at the start, but equally it takes balls to fire in that long sharp 7-8 foot cut shot with the CB snug on the rail (see mike sigel vs. zuglan) and somehow chip away at the first rack and get rolling from a difficult position.

This sounds like one of those things old guys say to convince themselves (or others) that they really were superior to the know-nothing kids today... even after they've lost a step.

As for the question about how many shots I know of from a full rack:
1. top ball in the side pocket
2. corner ball into the corner pocket, but it's so touchy that it's insane... if the equipment is right you can do a 1p style break and try to hit the first and second balls at almost exactly the same time, sending the opposite corner ball towards the hole
3. Clip a corner ball somewhere between half full and 1/3rd full with inside english and plenty of speed to bank it in the corner nearest you
4. On a particular table I shoot on, I can very often put a ball just behind the apex ball into the side. Dunno if this should count though, because it pretty much seems to work on 1 table, with a particular guy racking, and I can't even get the other ball in the 2nd row to go towards the other side. So it's flukey.

alstl · Sep 20, 2007

Bob Jewett said:
I guess I would look at it a lot differently. I think that no top player playing a serious game would ever play a shot out of the rack rather than play safe on the first shot of the game. I have never seen it done in any serious tournament. If someone did try it, the other players would have thought of him as a goof-ball or a freak. I have heard that Mosconi did it under some circumstances, but I doubt that he ever did it in a world championship match.

That's not to say that it's always the wrong shot. In an intramural tournament in college, my doubles partner banked the corner ball back from the full rack three times in a game to 75. Our opponents probably couldn't have won anyway, but this move devastated them. I think my partner may also have figured that they were likely to miss after two shots and then I'd shoot. The table had soft pockets as big as all outdoors.

I have a couple of questions. When you are playing by yourself trying to run balls and you miss the rack on your breakout shot, is there a particular shot that is preferred or are you just out of luck?

Also, do you know Bill Hendricks, 1964 intercollegiate champion who lives in the St Louis area?

JimS · Sep 20, 2007

Seems like if you missed the rack on your breakout shot/break shot then you start over. You missed. You didn't pocket a ball so you start counting over.

Bob Jewett · Sep 20, 2007

alstl said:
... When you are playing by yourself trying to run balls and you miss the rack on your breakout shot, is there a particular shot that is preferred or are you just out of luck?

Also, do you know Bill Hendricks, 1964 intercollegiate champion who lives in the St Louis area?

On the first point, if you are desperate to make a shot from a 14-ball (or full) rack, there are six or ten different shots that can be played. Bob Byrne has a bunch in one or more of his books. All of Byrne's pool-related books belong on your library shelf, even the one that is an anthology of "great pool stories."

Of the top of my head:
bank the corner ball back as mentioned before
from a 15-ball rack, head ball in the corner or kick the head ball 2 rails to the side
from under the rack, bank the corner ball cross-side
from under the rack play one of the head balls into the side
play the "one pocket dead ball break" by hitting the upper two balls on the side
play a shot like the one-pocket break where the cue ball runs towards the foot rail and knocks the corner ball in as the corner ball is bouncing off the foot rail (Mosconi played this in an exhibition to continue his run)

All of these depend very strongly on the rack and/or the condition of the cloth.

alstl · Sep 20, 2007

Bob Jewett said:
On the first point, if you are desperate to make a shot from a 14-ball (or full) rack, there are six or ten different shots that can be played. Bob Byrne has a bunch in one or more of his books. All of Byrne's pool-related books belong on your library shelf, even the one that is an anthology of "great pool stories."

Of the top of my head:
bank the corner ball back as mentioned before
from a 15-ball rack, head ball in the corner or kick the head ball 2 rails to the side
from under the rack, bank the corner ball cross-side
from under the rack play one of the head balls into the side
play the "one pocket dead ball break" by hitting the upper two balls on the side
play a shot like the one-pocket break where the cue ball runs towards the foot rail and knocks the corner ball in as the corner ball is bouncing off the foot rail (Mosconi played this in an exhibition to continue his run)

All of these depend very strongly on the rack and/or the condition of the cloth.

Thanks for the reply. I've got one of Byrne's books but I moved recently and I have no idea where it is.

Bob Jewett · Sep 20, 2007

Bob Jewett said:
... from a 15-ball rack, head ball in the corner or kick the head ball 2 rails to the side ...

Oops. The first shot should have been the head ball straight in the side, which is also a shot at nine ball. If anyone figures out how to make the head ball in any corner, I'd like to see it. Maybe on a bank off the side rail with transferred spin.

sjm · Sep 22, 2007

Gerry said:
100 is 100, I don't care how you start. If your opponent leaves you tough, a hanger, or a dead one in the pack....I don't care.

I agree completely. How the run starts shouldn't matter.

Steve Lipsky · Sep 23, 2007

High runs in straight pool are a piece of art. They reflect a moment in time in the player's head, when creativity, knowledge, and execution were all working perfectly in synch.

This argument is strange to me because it suggests that breaking up the balls is difficult. To someone who is capable of running high numbers, breaking up the balls is not difficult... running them out is the trickier part. Running them to a break ball is difficult.

Whether you started from a botched safe or with a wide open table or with a dead ball in the rack, it's all the same.

The beauty in the long run is not in the individual shots which make it up but in the ability to sustain concentration and execution for so long. I'm sorry, but I think to a degree some people are missing the point on this.

- Steve

Snapshot9 · Sep 23, 2007

Steve

I mostly agree with you, and I do like Blackjack's way of starting for a run.

Stay with me here:

If 2 men were to build a boat, and one is supplied all the materials for the boat to make, and made a good boat. The other guy started with nothing, had to figure out what to buy to make his boat. When both boats were done, and both of equal quality, which one of the 2 men would you consider to be the better boat builder?

Another illustration: If 2 men were doing the triple jump, and one had the running start, and the other had to start from a standing start, which one is more probable to jump the furtherest?

And any good player can run balls if they are spread out without much trouble, but deciding on a break ball (which isn't too hard after playing some - players deficiencies show up here just like in other games) and getting the cue ball in the optimal positon is truly one of the finer points of the game. Break shots may or not be that simple, you will see many of them being missed. My point being that creativity and good logic
are 2 attributes that rise to the top when playing 14.1, and this applies to the starting break as well, and should not be excluded or overlooked in the runs.

Anther example is that a pack starts with the break and continues consecutively through each rack and subsequent break and rack, not in midstream, or as some guys will proclaim to do a 6 pack and not count the breaks.

Another point I am trying to make is that yesterday's standards and milestones have been compromised into something easier to do because
the original standards were not reached by players. The perfect example is getting BIH after the break playing the ghost, where yesterday's standards included the break when playing the ghost. Are we, in fact, compromising just to get a 'feel better' as a player? Do these compromises , in fact, deter from the sports quality overall? This could even extend into various games rule changes over the years?

Thoughts?

mbvl · Sep 23, 2007

Bob Jewett said:
That's not to say that it's always the wrong shot. In an intramural tournament in college, my doubles partner banked the corner ball back from the full rack three times in a game to 75. Our opponents probably couldn't have won anyway, but this move devastated them. I think my partner may also have figured that they were likely to miss after two shots and then I'd shoot. The table had soft pockets as big as all outdoors.

Back in 1994 on ASP Bob wrote:

"[He] and I were the UC Berkeley Intramural 14.1 Team Champions about
1973. Twice in one match, he banked the corner ball from the rack of 14
back to a far corner pocket. Drove the opponents crazy. The two-man
team play was by alternating inning."

It sounds like the urban legend just keeps growing.

Mark

Williebetmore · Sep 23, 2007

Steve Lipsky said:
High runs in straight pool are a piece of art. They reflect a moment in time in the player's head, when creativity, knowledge, and execution were all working perfectly in synch.

This argument is strange to me because it suggests that breaking up the balls is difficult. To someone who is capable of running high numbers, breaking up the balls is not difficult... running them out is the trickier part. Running them to a break ball is difficult.

Whether you started from a botched safe or with a wide open table or with a dead ball in the rack, it's all the same.

The beauty in the long run is not in the individual shots which make it up but in the ability to sustain concentration and execution for so long. I'm sorry, but I think to a degree some people are missing the point on this.

- Steve

SL,
I can't give you any rep, but BRAVO; POST OF THE YEAR. You really hit the nail on the head, and in elegant fashion (much like your straight pool game

).

I wish though that you had told me this several years ago; it took me a while to see that this is true. Though still a relative novice; I really study the game, and most of my play is 14.1. When I first started I really thought that getting the balls apart was going to be the very most challenging part of the game - many players in our league never went into the balls unless they had to; and many never manufactured their own shots, preferring to just pick off open balls and play safeties.

The first few years I spent large amounts of time and effort learning how to get clusters open in the safest and best ways possible. It was the way to differentiate myself from the lower skill players in the league - and I truly thought that long runs would follow. NOT SO. I would often get down to the last 5 or 6 or 7 balls, wide open, and STILL NOT GET ON THE BREAK SHOT. Very deceiving, because it looked like that should be the easy part.

As I began competing with some champion players, they all (and my instructors) agreed with you. Learning to navigate the end table; and pick out a safe, workable pattern is not as easy as many think. Learning to maintain your concentration for the time necessary for a multi-rack run is not a gift, it is a learned skill. My straight pool guru's have specific drills to try to develop this concentration; but they all echo one of your previous sentiments - it's easier to concentrate for long periods during competition than it is in practice.

Reaper114 · Sep 23, 2007

Now 14-1 at a high level Is the hardest discipline of any cuesport! I agree making high runs is an art form, You have to be able to cue nicely and have the mental attributes too compete!

But too says its not as good when your left a shot too start off the run is a crime! You can force your opponent to make mistakes etc etc. In my personal opinion most of the break off shots to pot a ball aren't guarenteed all the time and are risky at the best of times! Do you really think two players of a very high standard are going to take that chance when playing for serious money or in a tournament race! Its one thing pushing the boat out from time to time! It's another thing being wreckless!!!!

You can say that the game is easier now than it was, due to the advances in equipment. But does that mean a great player of today wouldnt be able to play great if they started with the old equipment Probably would work Vice versa! Talent is Talent No matter what decade you come from!!

Now I only play 14-1 about once a week as i dont have the time to practice as much as id like too! but when I do I make it as hard as possible to beat the ghost!
Heres my 14-1 routine game
No BIH to Start
race to a 150(3 or 5 games)
play as if it was a tournament match(Safetys until a chance)!
If I dont run out! I use the run as the ghosts marker (only if its higher than 65, If the markers not over 65 that game goes to the ghost)!
If i dont beat the marker the game goes to the ghost! Now if i beat the marker and dont run the full amount I score as follows
half a point to me if the run is under 100,
if over 100 its 0.75 of a point,
Only get a full point if I run the set!

A point about those 100 and 200 ball runs!

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