Rules question - accidental cue ball movement

cascader

Registered
Scenario:
14.1 friendly game, race to 60 using CSI rules, self refereed.

Player 1 makes a ball in other than called pocket, which is then quickly spotted by player 1, and cueball is left sitting in kitchen where it came to rest. Player 2 comes to table.

Cue ball and one object ball are in kitchen, other balls in rack area with no simple shots or safeties apparent.

Player 2 picks up cue ball, briefly thinking it was ball in hand as a result of a scratch, and that the ball was spotted as a result of a scratch, rather than incorrect pocket. No reason to believe pickup was other than truly accidental. Player 1 calls foul, the cue ball is temporarily replaced approximately where it was, and a rules check is made. Player 2 agrees he erred.

Upon reading the deliberate foul wording, it wasn’t clear if it and the relatively harsh 16 point penalty would apply, as the act was more accidental than deliberate. Players agreed to play on as though a standard accidental cue ball movement occurred, with a loss of turn, 1 point penalty, and allow shooting the ball in the kitchen, and to seek rule clarification, and generalization to any of the CSI games where in incoming player accidentally picks up a cue ball.

Wondering if there is any judgement involved in applying the rules in this case, or if the answer is well defined.
 
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crazysnake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Friendly game, accidental/not deliberate, then no penalty. Replace cue ball to mutually agreed upon position and continue the game. If it were a match, wether the action was deliberate or accidental, it would incur a 16 point penalty.

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think this rule in the "Applied Rulings" is sort of what you are looking for:
While CSI hopes that good sportsmanship and good communication prevail, situations will inevitably arise in which there is a disagreement between players whether a foul was committed. In such a situation, if the incoming player takes ball in hand without consulting with their opponent, and then a referee cannot positively determine that the opponent did indeed foul, the incoming player has touched the cue ball with no basis to do so, and will be charged with a foul. However, the basis for the foul will be Rule 1-33-7-a, and it will not be considered a deliberate foul under Rule 1-40-a.​
"Unintentional intentional" and "confused about the flow of the game" acts are in general not covered well in rule sets.

"That's a foul, Mr. Mosconi."

"Foul? What foul?"

"You're chalking with the two ball, Mr. Mosconi."
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
different rule question, what do you do when the 15th ball lies inside the rack area?
happened to me twice today
 

DaveM

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If the 15th ball is in the rack it goes to the head spot. Cue ball in the rack goes to the kitchen. If both are in the rack, I believe the 15th ball is racked (full rack) and the cue ball goes to the kitchen. But there are quite a few other situations.
 
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Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
i gotta find up a way to make a corner ball on a full rack, happens alot to me that i dont have a shot on the 15th, and i just bet theres a way to make a corner ball
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
i gotta find up a way to make a corner ball on a full rack, happens alot to me that i dont have a shot on the 15th, and i just bet theres a way to make a corner ball

you can bank it back to the corner pocket in the kitchen on the same side
if you get the right angle with the cue ball
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
different rule question, what do you do when the 15th ball lies inside the rack area?
happened to me twice today
there is a good diagram at the end of this section that i couldnt copy and paste for some reason
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Continuous-Pool
section 4.8
4.8 Special Racking Situations

When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack,
the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within
or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes
with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen
balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the
head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue
ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or
on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind
the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is
blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play
as the first shot
of the new rack.
accidentally moved by the referee when racking.
 
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alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If it's just a knockabout then it's up to the players to determine what to do. I'd let it go and chalk it up to an honest mistake but it's not my decision since I wasn't playing.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Scenario:
14.1 friendly game, race to 60 using CSI rules, self refereed.

Player 1 makes a ball in other than called pocket, which is then quickly spotted by player 1, and cueball is left sitting in kitchen where it came to rest. Player 2 comes to table.

Cue ball and one object ball are in kitchen, other balls in rack area with no simple shots or safeties apparent.

Player 2 picks up cue ball, briefly thinking it was ball in hand as a result of a scratch, and that the ball was spotted as a result of a scratch, rather than incorrect pocket. No reason to believe pickup was other than truly accidental. Player 1 calls foul, the cue ball is temporarily replaced approximately where it was, and a rules check is made. Player 2 agrees he erred.

Upon reading the deliberate foul wording, it wasn’t clear if it and the relatively harsh 16 point penalty would apply, as the act was more accidental than deliberate. Players agreed to play on as though a standard accidental cue ball movement occurred, with a loss of turn, 1 point penalty, and allow shooting the ball in the kitchen, and to seek rule clarification, and generalization to any of the CSI games where in incoming player accidentally picks up a cue ball.

Wondering if there is any judgement involved in applying the rules in this case, or if the answer is well defined.


I think this should be ruled as a -1 point deduction, just to make the players pay attention to the game !!! just sayin :D
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
you can bank it back to the corner pocket in the kitchen on the same side
if you get the right angle with the cue ball

If the cue ball is behind the rack and in the right spot the corner ball can be banked cross side.
Did it once to continue a 100+ ball run.
 

cascader

Registered
Thanks, this looks like a good answer to the question.

One point of confusion was whether the ball in the kitchen could be shot after the foul was assessed. Since it wasn’t a pocket scratch, just a foul, we assumed it could be.

A one point penalty was assessed, the same as any standard foul.




I think this rule in the "Applied Rulings" is sort of what you are looking for:
While CSI hopes that good sportsmanship and good communication prevail, situations will inevitably arise in which there is a disagreement between players whether a foul was committed. In such a situation, if the incoming player takes ball in hand without consulting with their opponent, and then a referee cannot positively determine that the opponent did indeed foul, the incoming player has touched the cue ball with no basis to do so, and will be charged with a foul. However, the basis for the foul will be Rule 1-33-7-a, and it will not be considered a deliberate foul under Rule 1-40-a.​
"Unintentional intentional" and "confused about the flow of the game" acts are in general not covered well in rule sets.

"That's a foul, Mr. Mosconi."

"Foul? What foul?"

"You're chalking with the two ball, Mr. Mosconi."
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks, this looks like a good answer to the question.

One point of confusion was whether the ball in the kitchen could be shot after the foul was assessed. Since it wasn’t a pocket scratch, just a foul, we assumed it could be.

A one point penalty was assessed, the same as any standard foul.
I think you found a good solution. I think in general when the game sort of runs off the rails is that you should try to put it back on track as best you can even if the rule book doesn't quite cover the chaos.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, this looks like a good answer to the question.

One point of confusion was whether the ball in the kitchen could be shot after the foul was assessed. Since it wasn’t a pocket scratch, just a foul, we assumed it could be.

A one point penalty was assessed, the same as any standard foul.
I would think the ball in the kitchen could not be shot at in this situation. The 1 point foul and the incoming player gets the cue-ball-in-hand in the kitchen I would figure to be the correct ruling. That player would not be allowed to shoot at a ball behind the line just as in any cue-ball-in-hand behind the headstring foul. Of course if the decision is made to replace the cue ball in the spot it was originally at before it was accidentally picked up, then the player could shoot at the object ball behind the headstring.
 

cascader

Registered
Continuing the saga, same players, again an accidental cue ball pickup during a fun game, CSI 14.1 rules are in use. The oddity was that the cue ball was picked up by accident when the last ball was the only ball on the table, during the racking process, as the players were conversing prior to the re-rack. However the last ball was in the rack area, so it was spotted.

Since we couldn't determine where to replace the cue ball, and it was accidental it was agreed to be a one point foul, and loss of turn, and the incoming player had ball in hand in the kitchen, and the remaining 14 balls were racked.

Since the spotted ball from the rack area was, by definition, on the head string, and by CSI definition the head string is not in the kitchen and balls on the head string are legal to pot from "behind the line", it was determined that the incoming player could play the spotted ball from ball in hand behind the line, allowing a potential break shot with follow.

Reasonable interpretation?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Continuing the saga, same players, again an accidental cue ball pickup during a fun game, CSI 14.1 rules are in use. The oddity was that the cue ball was picked up by accident when the last ball was the only ball on the table, during the racking process, as the players were conversing prior to the re-rack. However the last ball was in the rack area, so it was spotted.

Since we couldn't determine where to replace the cue ball, and it was accidental it was agreed to be a one point foul, and loss of turn, and the incoming player had ball in hand in the kitchen, and the remaining 14 balls were racked.

Since the spotted ball from the rack area was, by definition, on the head string, and by CSI definition the head string is not in the kitchen and balls on the head string are legal to pot from "behind the line", it was determined that the incoming player could play the spotted ball from ball in hand behind the line, allowing a potential break shot with follow.

Reasonable interpretation?
I think it would have been better to put the cue ball back roughly where it was with both players agreeing. Since the OB was spotted, the position of the cue ball probably was not critical. But I think those two players need a special house rule: if you move the balls due to a thinko you have to buy a round for the house but the foul is forgiven. That might get them to pay better attention.

Related to which, I've had helpful passers-by help me during 14.1 practice by rolling the break shot down to me so I could rack all 15 and not forget the last ball.
 

ChopStick

Unsane Poster
Silver Member
i gotta find up a way to make a corner ball on a full rack, happens alot to me that i dont have a shot on the 15th, and i just bet theres a way to make a corner ball

Couple of ways to do it. If you are below the rack the corners go crosside. High english is required. Touch of inside also but varies.

If you are above rack the corners go straight back. Tougher shot in my opinion. I would rather be below shooting the crosside if I had a choice.

I'm headed down to the pool hall. I'll check and see if I told you correctly. Have done both of them in the past.


Yep. High inside for both.
 
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