USA vs. England, MC warmup

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Until now, I've never stopped to consider whether England is in worse shape than the US when it comes to up-and-coming pool players.

Their top 5 are certainly every bit as good as the 5 we fielded

Matchroom will bring pool to huge audience. This shwould be a great thing.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I said it smelled like a “precursor to switching Mosconi Cup to NA vs. EU” and the Matchroom COO responded with “spot on”. So either she’s responding to the second half of my post only or she’s confirming the entirety of it.

The reason it smelled like a precursor was simply intuition. If I was going to move in that direction then these are similar decisions I’d make to warm up the concept. #JustTheTip


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Weird. I assume she just didn’t read or get your meaning. Matchroom has addressed it directly in the past and said no way would they do that. And, no disrespect, but it’s such a dumb idea. It would admit defeat, change the nature of the event away from its Rider Cup analogue, and all just to get one player - a player who wasn’t even born in Canada, and has dual citizenship.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Weird. I assume she just didn’t read or get your meaning. Matchroom has addressed it directly in the past and said no way would they do that. And, no disrespect, but it’s such a dumb idea. It would admit defeat, change the nature of the event away from its Rider Cup analogue, and all just to get one player - a player who wasn’t even born in Canada, and has dual citizenship.


I assume Matchroom is more concerned about producing events that appeal to an interested audience than the dignity of a specific country now that the times and landscape have changed. My gut tells me they’re not going to keep trying the same thing over and over in the same way if they’re not entirely satisfied with outcome. I’m guessing they could be leading into more country to country challenge matches like season games and the cup itself could morph into something more like the Pro Bowl where you assemble the best of the best from a (slightly) larger pool of potential talent to square off. And maybe that just means NA vs EU. Even if the idea puts a bad taste in your mouth, it has “some” merit. I was just loosely speculating on FB and was surprised by the response and thought to share it here.


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PhilosopherKing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Their top 5 are certainly every bit as good as the 5 we fielded

Matchroom will bring pool to huge audience. This shwould be a great thing.

I'm not doubting the credentials of their top 5, but, looking at the average age of this English team, I'm wondering if there's any new talent kicking around, because I haven't heard any noise.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Long live Barry Hearn and Matchroom Sport! Bravo!

And I am tickled pink that it will be FREE live stream on Facebook.

So many of the snooker matches and tournaments in ASEAN countries are only available to some countries, and the United States is one of the countries that is excluded, which really sucks for us snooker fans.

The 16-man field of Champion of Chamipions snooker tournament is in progress this week, and Matchroom made sure it was streamed on Facebook for all to see, including United States. This is great for the sport, for all pocket billiard sports.

Pool might survive now with Barry Hearn and Matchroom Sport steering the ship.

Down with the BCA. Down with the WPA. Up, up, up with Matchroom Sport!
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I love the idea of this event, but is there a chance of demoralization before the cup if it's a big loss for Team USA?

Will it discredit the main event if team USA gets beat by Team England?

I can hear it now the next Wednesday when after having been drilled on day 1, wind bag Jim Wych says, well folks should we have expected different after they were just steamrolled a week ago by only England.

Imagine, a week prior to the Super bowl, the underdog team plays a match against a team clearly inferior to their true opponents. If they win, everyone knows they’re still big underdogs in the real event next week. And if they lose...

I agree with all the above. It is beyond a horrible idea to play a challenge match like this right before the Mosconi Cup with a team that is a severe underdog like team USA is, and it is an even worse idea if the opponents for team USA are weaker than team Europe. If team USA loses this, they will be demoralized and will be likely to play even worse at Mosconi because it is hard to talk yourself into thinking you have a chance against team Europe if you can't even beat some lesser team. There will also be less support and excitement from the fans with many of them also saying "well if USA couldn't even beat that 2nd or 3rd string team, they have no chance in beating team Europe so there is really no point in bothering to watch and certainly no point in believing in or rooting for team USA".

If you are going to have side challenge matches like this, they need to take place no closer than 8 weeks from the Mosconi Cup. That gives enough time for the players and fans to feel that things could have changed in the interim and that a different result or performance level could actually be possible.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I assume Matchroom is more concerned about producing events that appeal to an interested audience than the dignity of a specific country now that the times and landscape have changed. My gut tells me they’re not going to keep trying the same thing over and over in the same way if they’re not entirely satisfied with outcome. I’m guessing they could be leading into more country to country challenge matches like season games and the cup itself could morph into something more like the Pro Bowl where you assemble the best of the best from a (slightly) larger pool of potential talent to square off. And maybe that just means NA vs EU. Even if the idea puts a bad taste in your mouth, it has “some” merit.
If Matchroom does change it from USA to North America, it would be the perfect time for them to introduce new rivalries into the mix as well. I would not be surprised to see them announce a Team China/Taiwan verses Team Philippines Asian Mosconi Cup. Or it could be a Team Northern Asia (China, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, etc) verses Team Southern Asia (Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc) Asian Mosconi Cup. There could even be four Asian teams: Team Philippines, Team Taiwan, Team China, and Team All Asia (consisting of all the rest of the Asian countries).

The new teams, say Team Northen Asia and Team Southern Asia, could have their own separate Asian Mosconi Cup, or they could be included into a series with Team North America and Team Europe where the winner of North America verses Europe then faces off against the winner of Northern Asia verses Southern Asia for an east/west rivalry and finale.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
USA should be favourites for this - but that’s a pretty strong England team.I think the confidence boost/dent from winning or losing is overstated, it will be a warm up and will be treated as a warm up. Both teams will play to win but it won’t matter either way and there will be a beer or two drunk afterwards by most players and a gallon or two of beer drunk by a couple of them. Next year Europe could play a warm up against a North American, American (Americas) or resident in the USA team or whatever. It’s suits Matchroom, raises the profile of the Mosconi Cup as a brand and gives pool fans something to talk about and get excited about.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
I agree with all the above. It is beyond a horrible idea to play a challenge match like this right before the Mosconi Cup with a team that is a severe underdog like team USA is, and it is an even worse idea if the opponents for team USA are weaker than team Europe. If team USA loses this, they will be demoralized and will be likely to play even worse at Mosconi because it is hard to talk yourself into thinking you have a chance against team Europe if you can't even beat some lesser team. There will also be less support and excitement from the fans with many of them also saying "well if USA couldn't even beat that 2nd or 3rd string team, they have no chance in beating team Europe so there is really no point in bothering to watch and certainly no point in believing in or rooting for team USA".

If you are going to have side challenge matches like this, they need to take place no closer than 8 weeks from the Mosconi Cup. That gives enough time for the players and fans to feel that things could have changed in the interim and that a different result or performance level could actually be possible.

Omg they might lose and then never make a ball again. BS!

You think at this level these guys have never lost a match or tournament and then won the next week or next day or next match?
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
This just in from Matchroom ....

USA TO TAKE ON ENGLAND
Team USA will take on England in a Mosconi Cup style challenge match in London on Wednesday, November 28th.

The match will be broadcast live for free over two sessions on the partypoker Mosconi Cup Facebook page from 2pm (UK time) on Wednesday, November 28th and forms an important part of America’s preparations for the 25th annual partypoker Mosconi Cup.

The England team will be captained by Daryl Peach with Darren Appleton, Karl Boyes, Mark Gray, Imran Majid and Chris Melling forming the five-player squad.

Team USA is led by coach Johan Ruijsink alongside vice-coach Jeremy Jones with a playing squad of Corey Deuel, Tyler Styer, Billy Thorpe, Shane van Boening and Skyler Woodward.

Taking part at Spots & Stripes in London, the event will feature a mix of up to 13 singles and doubles matches, with the winning team the first to seven points. Each match is a race to five with an alternative break format.

The match will be streamed live throughout at www.facebook.com/mosconicup. There will be no public admittance to the match

I like the idea of a warm-up match prior to the MC. It will help to create a buzz around the MC a week ahead of time on FB and be good preparation for the Team USA players to compete in that environment. I also like that they are going over there so far ahead of time to get ready for the MC. This will allow them to accommodate to the time zone changes and acclimate better to being over there. Many pro golfers do the same thing a week prior to the British Open, going over early to play a European Tour event the week before.

They are doing a lot of things right this year and hopefully it will lead to a more competitive MC then we've seen in years. An upset by Team USA may be out of the question (they are huge underdogs) but a relatively close match would be a "win" at this point in time, say 11-8 or something like that. There have been "miracles" happen in sports before! Who knows? We can dream can't we. ;)
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Omg they might lose and then never make a ball again. BS!

You think at this level these guys have never lost a match or tournament and then won the next week or next day or next match?

When you are a C player and you play a B player who destroys you, do you really think that is going to improve your confidence in your ability to win against the A player you have to face in two weeks? That's silly. What it usually does is reinforce to you that you are in a totally different league from the A player and have no realistic chance in your upcoming match with him and that doesn't generally translate into playing your best pool.

That is only part of the equation though. For those that had any doubts, it also confirms to the fans that the C player has no chance against the A player because they just saw the B player wipe the floor with them so they aren't so interested in watching the A and C match up now, and aren't going to be so gung ho in rooting for the C player, etc.

Now if the C player beats the B player then it could boost their confidence for when they have to face the A player, but that is a pretty dumb risk to take so close to the main match when the odds for beating the B player weren't very good.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When you are a C player and you play a B player who destroys you, do you really think that is going to improve your confidence in your ability to win against the A player you have to face in two weeks? That's silly. What it usually does is reinforce to you that you are in a totally different league from the A player and have no realistic chance in your upcoming match with him and that doesn't generally translate into playing your best pool.

That is only part of the equation though. For those that had any doubts, it also confirms to the fans that the C player has no chance against the A player because they just saw the B player wipe the floor with them so they aren't so interested in watching the A and C match up now, and aren't going to be so gung ho in rooting for the C player, etc.

Now if the C player beats the B player then it could boost their confidence for when they have to face the A player, but that is a pretty dumb risk to take so close to the main match when the odds for beating the B player weren't very good.

I disagree with this premise. IT may hold true for your average banger, but these guys are Professionals. The Cleveland Browns lose every week basically. How many players on that roster are scared to play? Or go into the next Sunday knowing accepting defeat? None. It's not how professionals are wired.

Even Cory Duel made a comment earlier to the effect of " don't believe this BS that Americans are so far behind everyone else, I've been beating them in tournaments all year". (I am paraphrasing his quote, but It was on one of his his social media accounts.
 

Benward452

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I disagree with this premise. IT may hold true for your average banger, but these guys are Professionals. The Cleveland Browns lose every week basically. How many players on that roster are scared to play? Or go into the next Sunday knowing accepting defeat? None. It's not how professionals are wired.

Even Cory Duel made a comment earlier to the effect of " don't believe this BS that Americans are so far behind everyone else, I've been beating them in tournaments all year". (I am paraphrasing his quote, but It was on one of his his social media accounts.
More curious if a loss here for US could hurt viewer numbers for the main event.
 

Joe_Jaguar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
More curious if a loss here for US could hurt viewer numbers for the main event.

Well there is not many that watch it here. Over there I'm sure they will come out in droves to watch the US get clubbed like a baby seal as often as possible.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I disagree with this premise. IT may hold true for your average banger, but these guys are Professionals. The Cleveland Browns lose every week basically. How many players on that roster are scared to play? Or go into the next Sunday knowing accepting defeat? None. It's not how professionals are wired.

Even Cory Duel made a comment earlier to the effect of " don't believe this BS that Americans are so far behind everyone else, I've been beating them in tournaments all year". (I am paraphrasing his quote, but It was on one of his his social media accounts.

I think you just didn't really think this out. For starters, I didn't saying it would make them play 50 Fargo points lower than normal. I said it would likely have an effect on the team that won't be on the positive side. Do you really think they are going to play better after a recent loss to a lesser team than Team Europe?

Anybody past the level of being a half decent player knows that confidence plays a part in how well you perform, and when you are confident you tend to play better, and when you lack confidence you tend to play worse. It may be a little effect, or it may be a lot, but it is usually there for most people at any level.

Do you really think you are going to be as confident as a C player against an A player after you just got your a$$ handed to you by a B player, than you would be if you didn't just get wooped by that B player? While stranger things have happened, we all know this isn't likely. Your confidence going in to the Mosconi Cup is likely to be a little down as a result, and this is likely to lead to a little less quality in your play than you would have had had you not just had this recent a$$ wooping from an even lesser player than the one you are about to face.

As I also mentioned though, if you do pull out the win against the B player you are likely to get a confidence boost, so we have to see what happens in that match, but considering the likely odds against team England it just wasn't a smart gamble to take this close to the Cup IMO.

As far as Corey's quote, it has nothing to do with what we are discussing, but to address it, even if Corey was favored over the whole team Europe, he is only one person, and there is a whole team that is playing. It just so happens that Corey is an underdog to all of team Europe though, and fairly significantly so to most of them. Now if you are really trying to argue that the American team is just as good as team Europe, which seems to be kind of the insinuation, then I think that is plain nuts, but that argument is for another thread.

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the Team England roster so depending on who is on it, if they aren't in fact significantly favored over team USA like everybody is thinking they will be, then that changes some things.
 
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BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The England roster is in the first post of the thread. It's close, but I wouldn't bet on the US in this match.

SVB.......820
.
..............794....Mark Gray
..............790....Appleton
Sky........785
..............783....Melling
..............781....Boyes
Corey.....780
..............777....Majid
Billy........763
.
Styer......730
 
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jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I

Do you really think you are going to be as confident as a C player against an A player after you just got your a$$ handed to you by a B player, than you would be if you didn't just get wooped by that B player? While stranger things have happened, we all know this isn't likely. Your confidence going in to the Mosconi Cup is likely to be a little down as a result, and this is likely to lead to a little less quality in your play than you would have had had you not just had this recent a$$ wooping from an even lesser player than the one you are about to face.



.

I agree that confidence can effect outcome. Here is where we disagree. The US team is not a team of C players. The Euros will certainly be favored and should win. But the average fargo rate for the Euros is 801. For the US is 775. Certainly not a large enough gap to consider the US a C team compared to an A team.

Substitute JB for Styer and the FR for team USA goes up to 789. ( I realize FR, is just one metric, but my point is pros are pros. Not everyone can be Tom Brady, but even the worst NFL QB is pretty dang good.)
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
The England roster is in the first post of the thread. It's close, but I wouldn't bet on the US in this match.

SVB.......820
.
..............794....Mark Gray
..............790....Appleton
Sky........785
..............783....Melling
..............781....Boyes
Corey.....780
..............777....Majid
Billy........763
.
Styer......730

I agree about England being the favorite here.

But for all the others, I will take 2 to 1. My 500 to your 1,000

I will also take the USA in MC at 4 to 1, my $1,000 to your $4,000

Jason
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here’s what I expect will happen if they lose.

1) They acknowledge anything can happen in short races
2) They point out the lack of audience makes what they’ll face in the cup is different
3) They’ll point out it was good practice / preparation
4) They’ll identify the mistakes they made and promise to work on them in the time leading up to the cup to be even stronger
5) They’ll say their confidence is still high because they know they are capable of bringing world class play to the cup (even if they didn’t bring it to the challenge match)

To some degree that’s all spin. But on the other hand, it’s probably Team USA’s choice whether this is beneficial to them regardless of the risks and outcomes. Even if we would choose otherwise, I trust their feelings about it more than my own.


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spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
USA
Age Fargorate
Skyler 25 785
Shane 35 820
Billy Thorpe 22 763
Tyler Styer 23 730
Corey 41 779
Total 146 3877
Average 29.2 775.4


ENGLAND
Age Fargorate
Appleton 40 790
Karl Boyes 36 781
Mark Gray 45 792
Imran Majid 46 777
Chris Meiling 39 782
Total 206 3922
Average 41.2 784.4


This sounds like a nightmare. Playing a bunch of rampaging British old folks who are on average a decade older. With higher Fargo some more. A tight bunch who knows each others underwear color inside out. How do you stop this frat pack ? :D

king_of_thieves_ver2.jpg
 
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