regardless of your system why are backcuts seemingly tougher

ENGLISH! · Mar 5, 2015

Mikjary said:
Something shown to me years ago made my back cuts easier. In reality, the only difference in a back cut versus a regular cut is not looking at the pocket. It's the same angle, CIT, throw, etc. We just don't have a good line on the pocket because we're looking away.

A mental trick is to imagine the object ball is next to the rail and the rail leads to the pocket. I imagine the ball is a half inch or so off of the rail and I'm cutting it down the rail. The rail will be easier to follow than a line through the contact point. A rail is a familiar known image to you instead of an image of a line or track.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

That seems like a good visualization 'trick'.

I'm not big on visualization as it relates to seeing it made before you make it or seeing the shot in golf before you hit it. But I like you visualizing a rail sort of as an alignment aid in that 'don't 'dog' it into the rail'.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

ENGLISH! · Mar 5, 2015

LAMas said:
Mike,

OBs near frozen to the rail are a challenge for the pocket mouth is small. On the tables that I play on (4.0") if I hit the rail on the way to it, it can touch the far side pocket face of the pocket and rattle. If I over cut and it hits the far side face and also rattles.

So I take extra time to get them right. When I get them right, I use the stick next to the side of the OB to the pocket and imagine that it is the rail - on other shots where the OB is not near the rail.

Be well.

Hi E,

There are 2 Diamond tables at the hall that play most at that are like the ones of which you speak. I think they were at 4" before the cloth was put on & now they are less than 4" & a ball rolling 1/4" off but still parallel to the long rail will rattle as you say. But...rolling the same along the short rails they will go in. (same slow speed on both)

To me...that's not right.

Stay Well,
Rick

ENGLISH! · Mar 5, 2015

336Robin said:
I have to agree with John on this. There are a lot of those in One Pocket and many times its a long way to the hole. Being off just a tad at a distance is a lot by the time throw gets involved. Either play for the throw to the outside of the pocket or stroke just enough to cancel some of it, before you attempt assisting english

Hi Robin,

Am I missing something?

Can you elaborate on how you stroke to cancel out the CIT without using assisting english?

DO you mean just shoot hard enough?

I guess the reason I'm asking is the reference to One Pocket & I'm wondering if you have a method of which I'm not familiar.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

336Robin · Mar 5, 2015

ENGLISH! said:
Hi Robin,

Am I missing something?

Can you elaborate on how you stroke to cancel out the CIT without using assisting english?

DO you mean just shoot hard enough?

I guess the reason I'm asking is the reference to One Pocket & I'm wondering if you have a method of which I'm not familiar.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

Nothing new Rick more pass by throw is transferred on a slow hit, the harder you hit a shot the less of it transfers on Center Ball hit, You wont cancel all of it but the ball is moving/sliding on the cloth and naturally less of it will have any effect because for part of the way at least...its sliding so the side way imparted spin has less time to matter. Not to mention as the ball slows down it progressively matters more as it does which is negligible to say the least if its hit hard enough. Not to you say you want to shoot a shot that way full table. I rarely do full table unless I use Outside to cancel,.. but I do allow some for the throw on long slow shots.

On a long shot it can matter over the table length.

ENGLISH! · Mar 5, 2015

336Robin said:
Nothing new Rick more pass by throw is transferred on a slow hit, the harder you hit a shot the less of it transfers on Center Ball hit, You wont cancel all of it but the ball is moving/sliding on the cloth and naturally less of it will have any effect because for part of the way at least...its sliding so the side way imparted spin has less time to matter. Not to mention as the ball slows down it progressively matters more as it does which is negligible to say the least if its hit hard enough. Not to you say you want to shoot a shot that way full table. I rarely do full table unless I use Outside to cancel,.. but I do allow some for the throw on long slow shots.

On a long shot it can matter over the table length.

Hi Robin,

That's what I thought you meant but I had to read it twice so I was just wondering & wanted to make sure.

Thanks,
Rick

tonythetiger583 · Mar 5, 2015

I think the back-cuts that make me nervous are the thin ones. If the cut's already thin, chickening out, and hitting it too thick (something that already happens on thin cuts in general), is more punishing because of contact induced throw. Also it usually involves the cue-ball running a little wild afterwards.

BasementDweller · Mar 5, 2015

BilliardsAbout said:
A trick to get your cue aligned without english so you can "see" the cut:

Stand on the combined "parallel points" for backwards cuts (the cue ball cp and the ob cp) with the stick on that line then pivot stroke your stroke hand to center ball.

I really have no idea what I just read here.

cookie man · Mar 5, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
I think this gets to the real problem: with a backcut you not only don't see the pocket, you also don't see the rails that point to the pocket. These visual cues are extremely important - it's how the "shooting from behind a curtain" trick is done (it doesn't have anything to do with your aiming system).

pj
chgo

Really, than lets see your curtain video. Should be very interesting and I'm sure it's what the people want to see.

Patrick Johnson · Mar 5, 2015

336Robin said:
...for part of the way at least...its sliding so the side way imparted spin has less time to matter.

Just to clarify:

Sliding part way doesn't have any effect on the amount of transferred spin/throw unless the CB doesn't get fully rolling by the time it hits the OB. If it's not fully rolling at contact, then the amount of throw/transferred spin will be greater. If it is fully rolling, the amount will be less.

In fact, I think rolling vs. not rolling makes more of a difference than fast vs. slow (but I'm not certain of that). Rolling+fast produces the least throw/transferred spin and sliding(stun)+slow produces the most. All other combinations are somewhere between (and cut angle matters too).

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Mar 5, 2015

cookie man said:
Really, than lets see your curtain video. Should be very interesting and I'm sure it's what the people want to see.

Cookie, we already know that you don't understand why these constant calls for videos and bets are senseless. You don't have to keep reminding us that you don't get it.

How about baseball bats toe to toe? Now that would settle things...

pj
chgo

cookie man · Mar 5, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
Cookie, we already know that you don't understand why these constant calls for videos and bets are senseless. You don't have to keep reminding us that you don't get it.

How about baseball bats toe to toe? Now that would settle things...

pj
chgo

Wasn't trying to settle anything. I just think the people would like to see you do it.
Whats the toe to toe thing?

LAMas · Mar 5, 2015

BasementDweller said:
I really have no idea what I just read here.

CP2CP aiming.

BLADE · Mar 5, 2015

CTE/ Pro One eliminates this issue as it gets the shooters eyes perfect for any and all shots.

Yoda4962 · Mar 5, 2015

No such animal !

There is no such thing as a 'back' cut. !

There are left cuts and right cuts. This is why you fail !

Patrick Johnson · Mar 5, 2015

BLADE said:
CTE/ Pro One eliminates this issue as it gets the shooters eyes perfect for any and all shots.

I hear the same thing about ghost ball, double overlap, parallel lines, bottom of ball, back of ball, shadows, lights, contact point to contact point, etc., etc., even aiming simply "by feel".

pj <- depends who you ask, I guess
chgo

ENGLISH! · Mar 5, 2015

tonythetiger583 said:
I think the back-cuts that make me nervous are the thin ones. If the cut's already thin, chickening out, and hitting it too thick (something that already happens on thin cuts in general), is more punishing because of contact induced throw. Also it usually involves the cue-ball running a little wild afterwards.

Tony,

TOI works great for thin shots & especially for long thin shots as well as thin back cuts.

To me one of the reasons is that you are aligned thick & using the squirt to get thinner. That requires a stroke. So 'chickening out' is sort of out of the picture. You know you can't hit it where you're aligned so you have to commit to getting the ball farther out. If anything, for me there is a slight tendency to overcut.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

336Robin · Mar 5, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
Just to clarify:

Sliding part way doesn't have any effect on the amount of transferred spin/throw unless the CB doesn't get fully rolling by the time it hits the OB. If it's not fully rolling at contact, then the amount of throw/transferred spin will be greater. If it is fully rolling, the amount will be less.

In fact, I think rolling vs. not rolling makes more of a difference than fast vs. slow (but I'm not certain of that). Rolling+fast produces the least throw/transferred spin and sliding(stun)+slow produces the most. All other combinations are somewhere between (and cut angle matters too).

pj
chgo

I agree PJ. I was actually referring the object ball itself after contact with the cue ball and probably a barely rolling one most likely, I would guess that I wasn't clear. I agree that the non rolling cue ball imparts more cling and resulting spin as I use that in banks quite often.

What I have noticed in banks is that the correction tends to take effect on the shot cross corners at around the last diamond and half or so of travel when you have to warp some English on the shot on a Passover.

Your statement is correct.

duckie · Mar 5, 2015

bbb said:
regardless of your system why are backcuts seemingly tougher
your thoughts appreciated.....:wink:
(any tips to make them appreciated...:thumbup

This is one of those times a picture would be helpful.

It is also amazing there are those making statements on why you can miss them....IE can't see the pocket.....without ever seeing the ball layout on the table. Are those implying that there are no back cuts....whatever that means..... where you can see the pocket?

Pool is about vision, seeing the shot. How can you discuss a type of shot without seeing the shot?

Freaking amazing.

Oh, without seeing the shot, I can tell ya why you miss them......you are not a proponent of HAMB.....meaning you need to practice better.

And yes it is that simple.....practice better.

Patrick Johnson · Mar 5, 2015

duckie said:
Are those implying that there are no back cuts....whatever that means..... where you can see the pocket?

It means cuts where you can't (or almost can't) see the pocket.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH! · Mar 5, 2015

duckie said:
This is one of those times a picture would be helpful.

It is also amazing there are those making statements on why you can miss them....IE can't see the pocket.....without ever seeing the ball layout on the table. Are those implying that there are no back cuts....whatever that means..... where you can see the pocket?

Pool is about vision, seeing the shot. How can you discuss a type of shot without seeing the shot?

Freaking amazing.

Oh, without seeing the shot, I can tell ya why you miss them......you are not a proponent of HAMB.....meaning you need to practice better.

And yes it is that simple.....practice better.

Greg,

Many of us that have been playing for a long time knew exactly what type of shot of which bbb/Larry was speaking.

It's not one specific shot but a whole array of a type of shots that are similar.

I find it a bit difficult to believe that you would need to see a picture to understand what type of shot of which Larry was speaking.

If he was talking about one particular specific shot then perhaps a picture might be helpful or 'required' but not for a general type of shot.

IMHO, You've changed over the last few months.

Best 2 You & Yours,
Rick

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