how low can you contact cb with a level cue?

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Describe one.

pj
chgo
I'd never heard this term til David Matlock showed me. He placed an OB in front of pocket, put the CB an inch or so out from it, jacked-up vertical and the CB went out about 4-5 inches, stopped and came straight back pocketing the ball. Dave is a also a high-speed 3c player(hi run is around 17-18) for those that don't know and has one POWERFUL stroke. He made the shot look like a dead hanger.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I'd never heard this term til David Matlock showed me. He placed an OB in front of pocket, put the CB an inch or so out from it, jacked-up vertical and the CB went out about 4-5 inches, stopped and came straight back pocketing the ball. Dave is a also a high-speed 3c player(hi run is around 17-18) for those that don't know and has one POWERFUL stroke. He made the shot look like a dead hanger.
Another word for it is "masse".

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Now explain piquet shots.
Well, here is a bad explanation from Clive Cottingham:

CropperCapture[466].png

There is no way the cue ball is coming straight back with only that much elevation. The Coriolis method of aiming massé quickly tells you that the elevation must be about 60 degrees before the cue ball can even go out and stop.

In general a piqué shot (to use the French spelling) is used to increase the amount of backspin in relation to the forward speed of the ball. It is used very often at the "small games" of carom billiards when the speed of ball #2 (the first object ball) needs to be reduced relative to the draw distance of the cue ball.

A related term is "quick draw". Here's a page about that: https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/draw/quick/

Here's a pretty good "small games" player doing a kind of piqué that we might call "post-collision massé".
Scan20200215.jpg

Scan20200215_0001.jpg
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
It's not a comparison. The piquet ball returns. The draw ball doesn't. Pretty simple math there.

Putting maximum spin on the cue ball and ‘drawing’ the cue ball are two different things. Your piquet shot from near vertical puts max spin with minimal speed, useless for making a shot and drawing the cue ball unless the two are very close together.

When you’re talking about making a shot and drawing the CB, near level cue is the way to do it

I’m sure you know this already but in case someone new is reading through this...
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The Coriolis method of aiming massé quickly tells you that the elevation must be about 60 degrees before the cue ball can even go out and stop.
I.e., aiming with maximum draw at the CB's base (where it touches the table).

And the amount of speed = the distance it goes before stopping?

Fascinating stuff.

pj
chgo
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First description I came across stated it was a stroke that drew the ball without it hitting anything. The description went on to say the ball should be struck at a 45 degree incline. Obviously this is wrong or not possible on modern equipment. The only way possible seems to be with a vertical stroke. The ball squirts out and returns on the same line. Point being elevation is a requirement of maximum spin; not the other way around.

Well, here is a bad explanation from Clive Cottingham:

PiquetJPG.jpg

There is no way the cue ball is coming straight back with only that much elevation. The Coriolis method of aiming massé quickly tells you that the elevation must be about 60 degrees before the cue ball can even go out and stop.

In general a piqué shot (to use the French spelling) is used to increase the amount of backspin in relation to the forward speed of the ball. It is used very often at the "small games" of carom billiards when the speed of ball #2 (the first object ball) needs to be reduced relative to the draw distance of the cue ball.

Thanks. That's the diagram I was referring to. The point is you get maximum backspin by shooting down on the ball.


Then why do you keep comparing them?


Putting maximum spin on the cue ball and ‘drawing’ the cue ball are two different things. Your piquet shot from near vertical puts max spin with minimal speed, useless for making a shot and drawing the cue ball unless the two are very close together.

When you’re talking about making a shot and drawing the CB, near level cue is the way to do it

I’m sure you know this already but in case someone new is reading through this...

One correction. The piquet shot is an example in this interchange because it requires no collision to return. It's all backspin minus the squirt.

AND flame bait holds no attraction for me. I post for those who are genuinely interested.

Dr. D states shooting down on the ball doesn't result in more back spin yet here is the Piquet shot. Call It what you like it's still a draw shot. No it doesn't defy science. It does indicate human technique requires the backstop of the table to convert stroke force into backspin.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Dr. D states shooting down on the ball doesn't result in more back spin yet here is the Piquet shot. Call It what you like it's still a draw shot. No it doesn't defy science. It does indicate human technique requires the backstop of the table to convert stroke force into backspin.
The CB doesn't reverse direction because it has more spin - it reverses because it has less forward speed.

Friendly advice: not listening to Bob and Dave is a sure way to miss learning something valuable.

pj
chgo
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The CB doesn't reverse direction because it has more spin - it reverses because it has less forward speed.

Friendly advice: not listening to Bob and Dave is a sure way to miss learning something valuable.

pj
chgo

Condescension doesn't become you. Inventing scenarios will keep you deluded. The genre here is not one of semantics or attitudes. It's one of technique tackles physics. Neither is this a pool session where you might be expected to tooth and nail it. I'm here to discover and reveal the truths of pool.
 

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
You can't. The main point is you should try to level out as best as possible.

following up with the
"when you draw, where should the cb contact the tip?" thread
I took some of y'all advice and tested with a stripe
to my surprise, this is as low as I could draw with a (seemingly) level cue
I tested this several times, and got a similar result each time
not only does this outcome seem to narrow down the cause of my miscue/draw woes
(with good form, I'm not getting too low/am inside miscue limit)
but it's pretty interesting in and of itself
again, I'm using a fairly small tip (11.5mm) and dime shape
and if you look at the pics, you can see the chalkmark indicating
where the curve of the tip, meets the curve of the cb
kinda cool
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Thanks. That's the diagram I was referring to. The point is you get maximum backspin by shooting down on the ball.
...
Do you believe that you get more RPMs for a given stick speed with an elevation of 45 degrees compared to a few degrees for rail clearance? Note that I said a given stick speed and not forward speed of the cue ball.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't know the physics of it, but in my experience using a narrower tip (say 12mm as opposed to 13mm) allows you to put more extreme english on the cue ball. Maybe it's already been mentioned on here, but I would suggest that by using a narrow tip you can hit lower on the cue ball and draw the ball farther. I speak not from any other base of knowledge but experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Do you believe that you get more RPMs for a given stick speed with an elevation of 45 degrees compared to a few degrees for rail clearance? Note that I said a given stick speed and not forward speed of the cue ball.

I think "backspin" speed is more related to the power of one's stroke. The Three Cushion players who frequently are shooting down on the cue ball can do some amazing things with it. On the other hand the best pool players with the most powerful strokes can draw the ball faster and farther.

Bob, I am responding here to Straighline's comment about getting maximum backspin by shooting down on the cue ball versus shooting horizontally. Again, I think that is directly related to the power of one's stroke and to a lesser degree their technique in hitting the ball.
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you believe that you get more RPMs for a given stick speed with an elevation of 45 degrees compared to a few degrees for rail clearance? Note that I said a given stick speed and not forward speed of the cue ball.

I have small hands. I can't get enough wind up at 45 degrees without going freehand so I've never thought about it in jungle physics terms. But speaking of jungle physics, if you can get the ball coming back without hitting anything, that's moar speeyunn period; cueball vector vs rotation ratios withstanding.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know the physics of it, but in my experience using a narrower tip (say 12mm as opposed to 13mm) allows you to put more extreme english on the cue ball. Maybe it's already been mentioned on here, but I would suggest that by using a narrow tip you can hit lower on the cue ball and draw the ball farther. I speak not from any other base of knowledge but experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

hi jay
I've also tested this a little bit
I'm not sure how much the physics of a smaller tip/cue matter
but one advantage I notice is being able to aim the smaller tip better on the cb
makes it easier to see what you're doing, be more precise
would be curious to know what other folks think about it
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
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Silver Member
I have small hands. I can't get enough wind up at 45 degrees without going freehand so I've never thought about it in jungle physics terms. But speaking of jungle physics, if you can get the ball coming back without hitting anything, that's moar speeyunn period; cueball vector vs rotation ratios withstanding.
The difference between absolute rotation rate and rotation relative to translation is important. I think it is an error to dismiss it.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I don't know the physics of it, but in my experience using a narrower tip (say 12mm as opposed to 13mm) allows you to put more extreme english on the cue ball. Maybe it's already been mentioned on here, but I would suggest that by using a narrow tip you can hit lower on the cue ball and draw the ball farther. I speak not from any other base of knowledge but experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Sorry, Jay, but you’re wrong about that. A narrow tip is just a wider tip with a small outer layer removed. That only means it will be hitting on it’s edge sooner.

pj
chgo
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The difference between absolute rotation rate and rotation relative to translation is important. I think it is an error to dismiss it.

Scientifically/mathematically you are absolutely correct although I'd have a hard time proving even that. For pool, I go by what I need the ball to do and what I can do about it. At my level, concerns are that object ball accuracy is forgone and cue ball control is good enough to be good enough. Good patterns and sensible pace are well enough to carry the show. :)
 
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