Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

dr_dave · Oct 29, 2018

Here's the latest:

Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factor from three pocket measurements to determine the difficulty level of a table.

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size

SF, mouth-throat difference

AF, shelf depth

LF - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (10' Gabriel Sentinel at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.12, 5/8":1.01, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.12 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC, 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16:0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

_______________________________________

Based on ideas from previous threads on this topic (tight pockets thread and pocket answers thread), and based discussion in the Billiard University (BU) thread concerning how to account for table difficulty in scoring and rating drills like the BU Exams, I decided to create a system for determining how difficult a table plays (based on table and pocket geometry only). It is described in detail in the Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) document, which is convenient if you want a printed copy.

Here's how it works:

The Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is a percentage measure of how difficult or easy a particular table plays. It is based on table size and the three corner-pocket measurements illustrated below. If the cushion is not 2” (5.1cm) thick, measure the throat size 2” (5.1 cm) back from the cushion noses. You can lay down Post-It Notes or masking tape to better define the lines and intersection points to help with the mouth and throat measurements. If you have an angle-measurement device, you can measure the facing angle directly instead of measuring the throat size. The pocket shelf depth should be measured from the pocket mouth line to the slate top lip edge (where the pocket opening first starts).

Four factors are used to account for table size, pocket size, pocket facing angle, and pocket shelf depth. Each factor is a number less than, equal to, or greater than 1, where 1 indicates average or standard. By multiplying the four factors, you get the TDF which is a good measure of table “toughness.” If TDF=1, the table has an average level of difficulty; if TDF>1, the table plays more difficult than average; and if TDF<1, the table plays easier than average.

The four factors are defined as follows:

The total Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is then calculated by multiplying the four factors:

TDF = TSF x PSF x PAF x PLF

The TDF can be used to adjust numbers from any scoring or rating system like the Billiard University Exams, “playing the ghost” drills, the Hopkins Q Skills drill, or the Fargo rating drill. An effective score, taking table difficulty into consideration, can be calculated with:

(effective score) = (raw score) x TDF

NOTE – The TDF and effective-score numbers should not be interpreted too literally since there are so many other factors that contribute to how difficult a table actually plays (cloth type and condition, ball conditions, pocket facing and shim properties, rail and cushion conditions, table levelness, humidity, etc.). Here’s a rough scale one can use to put the TDF factor in better perspective:

ChrisinNC · Oct 31, 2018

Dave, for both of our tables (9' and 10') ranked in the top 16 toughest tables (ChrisinNC at Family Billiards in Boone, NC), could you please add in the description of the tables that they have both been Ernesto Dominguez modified. - Thanks

dr_dave · Nov 1, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Dave, for both of our tables (9' and 10') ranked in the top 16 toughest tables (ChrisinNC at Family Billiards in Boone, NC), could you please add in the description of the tables that they have both been Ernesto Dominguez modified. - Thanks

Done.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Nov 1, 2018

Here's the latest:

Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factor from three pocket measurements to determine the difficulty level of a table.

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size

SF, mouth-throat difference

AF, shelf depth

LF - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.12, 5/8":1.01, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.12 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC, 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16:0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

_______________________________________

Based on ideas from previous threads on this topic (tight pockets thread and pocket answers thread), and based discussion in the Billiard University (BU) thread concerning how to account for table difficulty in scoring and rating drills like the BU Exams, I decided to create a system for determining how difficult a table plays (based on table and pocket geometry only). It is described in detail in the Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) document, which is convenient if you want a printed copy.

Here's how it works:

The Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is a percentage measure of how difficult or easy a particular table plays. It is based on table size and the three corner-pocket measurements illustrated below. If the cushion is not 2” (5.1cm) thick, measure the throat size 2” (5.1 cm) back from the cushion noses. You can lay down Post-It Notes or masking tape to better define the lines and intersection points to help with the mouth and throat measurements. If you have an angle-measurement device, you can measure the facing angle directly instead of measuring the throat size. The pocket shelf depth should be measured from the pocket mouth line to the slate top lip edge (where the pocket opening first starts).

Four factors are used to account for table size, pocket size, pocket facing angle, and pocket shelf depth. Each factor is a number less than, equal to, or greater than 1, where 1 indicates average or standard. By multiplying the four factors, you get the TDF which is a good measure of table “toughness.” If TDF=1, the table has an average level of difficulty; if TDF>1, the table plays more difficult than average; and if TDF<1, the table plays easier than average.

The four factors are defined as follows:

The total Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) is then calculated by multiplying the four factors:

TDF = TSF x PSF x PAF x PLF

The TDF can be used to adjust numbers from any scoring or rating system like the Billiard University Exams, “playing the ghost” drills, the Hopkins Q Skills drill, or the Fargo rating drill. An effective score, taking table difficulty into consideration, can be calculated with:

(effective score) = (raw score) x TDF

NOTE – The TDF and effective-score numbers should not be interpreted too literally since there are so many other factors that contribute to how difficult a table actually plays (cloth type and condition, ball conditions, pocket facing and shim properties, rail and cushion conditions, table levelness, humidity, etc.). Here’s a rough scale one can use to put the TDF factor in better perspective:

ceebee · Nov 26, 2018

We just had our Snooker Table (for golf) recovered with 860 Simonis. It is slow, slow, slow. I don't know what the old cloth was, but someone said it was Gorina. Anybody got an idea of what's better than Simonis 860 for speed.

dr_dave · Nov 26, 2018

ceebee said:
We just had our Snooker Table (for golf) recovered with 860 Simonis. It is slow, slow, slow. I don't know what the old cloth was, but someone said it was Gorina. Anybody got an idea of what's better than Simonis 860 for speed.

Simonis 760 is faster than 860.

I have not had any experience with Gorina.

Regards,
Dave

ChrisinNC · Nov 28, 2018

dr_dave said:
Simonis 760 is faster than 860.

I have not had any experience with Gorina.

Regards,
Dave

Granito / Gorina Tournament 2000 blend is way faster even than Simonis 760. We had it on our tables here for a few years.

chevybob20 · Dec 2, 2018

ceebee said:
We just had our Snooker Table (for golf) recovered with 860 Simonis. It is slow, slow, slow. I don't know what the old cloth was, but someone said it was Gorina. Anybody got an idea of what's better than Simonis 860 for speed.

HR is in between 760 and 860.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ChrisinNC · Dec 3, 2018

chevybob20 said:
HR is in between 760 and 860.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Read previous post

gregcantrall · Dec 5, 2018

I thought I had posted to this thread back when I posted to this
10 foot Diamond with 4-1/8" corner pockets
This is the 10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center.
Pocket mouth size
4
Pocket throat size
3 3/8
Shelf depth
1 1/2
Calculate
Table Size Factor: 1.10
Pocket Size Factor: 1.20
Pocket Angle Factor: 1.00
Pocket Shelf Factor: 0.99
Table Difficulty Factor: 1.31

dr_dave · Dec 6, 2018

gregcantrall said:
I thought I had posted to this thread back when I posted to this
10 foot Diamond with 4-1/8" corner pockets
This is the 10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center.
Pocket mouth size
4
Pocket throat size
3 3/8
Shelf depth
1 1/2
Calculate
Table Size Factor: 1.10
Pocket Size Factor: 1.20
Pocket Angle Factor: 1.00
Pocket Shelf Factor: 0.99
Table Difficulty Factor: 1.31

Thanks for posting. I've added it to the list.

That's a tough table for a Rec Center!

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Dec 6, 2018

Here's the latest:

Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factor from three pocket measurements to determine the difficulty level of a table.

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size

SF, mouth-throat difference

AF, shelf depth

LF - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.12, 5/8":1.01, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.12 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC, 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16:0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

ChrisinNC · Dec 6, 2018

Dave, on our 10-foot Gabriel's tables at Family Billiards in Boone, NC, currently tied for 11th toughest at 1.15, Ernesto replaced the 1/8" corner facings with 3/16" corner facings recently, so our corner pocket mouth measurement changed from 4-3/8" to 4-1/4", if that changes our toughness rating at all? Thanks

dr_dave · Dec 6, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Dave, on our 10-foot Gabriel's tables at Family Billiards in Boone, NC, currently tied for 11th toughest at 1.15, Ernesto replaced the 1/8" corner facings with 3/16" corner facings recently, so our corner pocket mouth measurement changed from 4-3/8" to 4-1/4", if that changes our toughness rating at all? Thanks

Yes. That changes the pocket size factor (PSF) from 1.05 to 1.10, which increases the overall TDF from 1.15 to 1.20. I'll add a new entry for the shimmed pockets.

Thank you for posting,
Dave

dr_dave · Dec 6, 2018

Here's the latest:

Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factor from three pocket measurements to determine the difficulty level of a table.

Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size

SF, mouth-throat difference

AF, shelf depth

LF - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.20 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (original 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.12, 5/8":1.01, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.12 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC, 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16:0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

ChrisinNC · Dec 6, 2018

Dave, you now mistakenly have 2 entries for our 10-foot table. You can delete the one with the 1.15 TDF - thanks

dr_dave · Dec 6, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Dave, you now mistakenly have 2 entries for our 10-foot table. You can delete the one with the 1.15 TDF - thanks

I decided to leave both of them since the numbers are different. I added “shimmed” to the new description to differentiate them.

Thanks again for posting both versions of the table.

Regards,
Dave

ChrisinNC · Dec 6, 2018

dr_dave said:
I decided to leave both of them since the numbers are different. I added “shimmed” to the new description to differentiate them.

Thanks again for posting both versions of the table.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, thanks, but I don't really know if I'd call going from 1/8" facings to 3/16" facings as "shimmed" pockets. Many manufacturers including Diamond use 3/16" facings as standard on all their Diamond tour cut pockets - both 9-foot and 7-foot smart tables. Most players and mechanics refer to "shimmed" as either 2 or more 1/8" facings stacked together or replacing 1/8" facings with 1/4" facings.

dr_dave · Dec 6, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Dave, thanks, but I don't really know if I'd call going from 1/8" facings to 3/16" facings as "shimmed" pockets. Many manufacturers including Diamond use 3/16" facings as standard on all their Diamond tour cut pockets - both 9-foot and 7-foot smart tables. Most players and mechanics refer to "shimmed" as either 2 or more 1/8" facings stacked together or replacing 1/8" facings with 1/4" facings.

Do you have another descriptor to recommend for either the new or old version of the table?

Thanks,
Dave

ChrisinNC · Dec 7, 2018

dr_dave said:
Do you have another descriptor to recommend for either the new or old version of the table?

Thanks,
Dave

Dave, to answer your question, I guess the most accurate descriptor of this table would be "Gabriel's 10-foot Sentinel Prototype". The history of this table is that Gabriel's produced this one-of-a-kind 10-foot prototype Sentinel table for an invitational pro event for the 2016 Deurne City Classic in Netherlands, held in June 2016, won by Joshua Filler. I was lucky enough to buy it immediately after that event was held, as I already had all Gabriel's tables in our poolroom which I'm sure is the only reason they were willing to sell this table to me. They made the decision shortly after that not to offer the Sentinel model in a 10-foot size due to anticipated lack of demand, so I have the only one is existence. Problem was it originally had 1/2" thick pocket facings to achieve 4-1/4" pockets for the pro event - certainly not ideal to have that thick of pocket facings, which creates all that dead cushion rubber outside of the pocket mouth.

Ernesto modified the table last year by extending the subrails, installing new Kleber/Klematch cushions, and using 1/8" pocket facings, and I told him I wanted it to come out at 4-3/8" pockets, which it did. When Ernesto came back this year, I decided to make it just ever so slightly tougher by requesting him to change out the pocket facings from 1/8" thick to 3/16" thick when he recovered the rails and bed with new Simonis. This resulted in tightening up the new corner pocket mouth measurements to 4-1/4 which is where it was originally, but with the correct size pocket facings as opposed to what amounted to triple or quadrupled shimmed pocket facings, which it came to me as. Personally, it doesn't really make sense for you to have both tables in your listing of tables, as it is the same table, but that's your call - thanks.

Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

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Center Ball

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