Beat Fats?

raistlinsdragon

AzB Silver Member
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Good point. I think I could've beat him, but I'd say he busted a lot of guys who thought they could beat him, and I might've just been another one of those that helped pay for his car and motorhome. Lol.
Fats was in his 50's at the Johnson City tourneys, so I don't think that's a fair way to judge his speed.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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According to many of the better players back in the Johnston City days, Fats was a much better game maker than a player. He was best at setting up games he could win, always getting spots from better players, which was most of the time. And he loved the action.

I think I'd have beaten Fats and his yapping mouth if I had been around then, just as many here would've done. But chances are he'd have wanted too much weight and we'd have never gotten a game with him.

Too many people think of Jackie Gleason's character in The Hustler, and associate that fictional skill level with the fat man that hoodwinked people into believing he was Walter Tevis's "Minnesota Fats". Wanderone was probably a decent player, but not a real good player, despite his self-appointed crown of greatness.

It took a very strong player to beat Fats at One Pocket, Banks or Three Cushions and only the champions could spot him. I saw Fats come into a roomful of champions and start woofing and having fun with them. I didn't see a lot of guys trying to make a game with him, and even the ones who did were very careful. He was a top flight gambler who played better the higher the bet and the more the pressure. At Pool, that is. He could be a sucker at cards.
 

jay helfert

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Fats was in his 50's at the Johnson City tourneys, so I don't think that's a fair way to judge his speed.

He beat Richie Florence, who was in his prime, out of $26,000 playing One Pocket at JC getting 8-7. They played about eight or nine times over a three week period and never bet over 300 a game! That's probably the equivalent of winning over 100K today. That was in 1966 or '67 when he was in his early 50's. I also watched him beat one of the top Three Cushion players in the country for $1,000 in a single Race to 50. He ran nine and out when trailing 47-41. That was in 1963. I traveled with Fats around Ohio and Indiana when I was a kid (19-20) and he put on exhibitions every day, usually playing Eight Ball against all comers. On two or three occasions someone challenged him to play for money and he never backed down. He got a little excited by such a challenge and became very animated. If someone asked him to play one game for $10, he would say bet 50. The guys who challenged him would usually shut up after that but twice I saw him play someone for $50 and he won both times. Fats could play and don't ever think he couldn't. The other old time greats respected him. Guys like Wimpy, Taylor, Moore, Irish, Rood and Willis were always amused when he came in and started talking. Some of the young players didn't like it quite as much.
 
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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
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He beat Richie Florence, who was in his prime, out of $26,000 playing One Pocket at JC getting 8-7. They played about eight or nine times over a three week period and never bet over 300 a game! That's probably the equivalent of winning over 100K today. That was in 1966 or '67 when he was in his early 50's. I also watched him beat one of the top Three Cushion players in the country for $1,000 in a single Race to 50. He ran nine and out when trailing 47-41. That was in 1963. I traveled with Fats around Ohio and Indiana when I was a kid (19-20) and he put on exhibitions every day, usually playing Eight Ball against all comers. On two or three occasions someone challenged him to play for money and he never backed down. He got a little excited by such a challenge and became very animated. If someone asked him to play one game for $10, he would say bet 50. The guys who challenged him would usually shut up after that but twice I saw him play someone for $50 and he won both times. Fats could play and don't ever think he couldn't. The other old time greats respected him. Guys like Wimpy, Taylor, Moore, Irish, Rood and Willis were always amused when he came in and started talking. Some of the young players didn't like it quite as much.

Jay,

Did you ever get to see Johnny Irish play? He must have been older at the time, if so... What was his game like?
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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Jay,

Did you ever get to see Johnny Irish play? He must have been older at the time, if so... What was his game like?

I played Johnny Irish (twice) at 7-11 in New York when I was 20 and he was in his 60's. We played $2 9-Ball each time. Yes I said $2 a game! :smile:

He beat me easily out of $15-20. He still played good but I never got to see his best game. It was not necessary playing me. What I did know was that he was the mentor to players like Jersey Red, Johnny Ervolino, New York Blackie and Richie Ambrose.

Later on I found out that this old man I had been playing was once considered the best player in New York. I only really knew of him by reputation. I'm not sure I ever saw him play against anyone but me. I think I saw him shoot some proposition shots once but that's about it. He also went to Johnston City and may have played the first year, but I don't think he played in the tourney the first time I went. I just don't remember seeing him play.
 

Kiwis11

AzB Silver Member
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I played fats in an exhibition match in Bloomington, IL around 1964 at a Montgomery Wards Store. He was there to promote his namesake tables. I was a decent player and more well known in my hometown as a baseball player. I beat Fats playing several games of 8 Ball...bank the 8. Fats was a ton of fun...noisy...always talking loud even when shooting...funny as hell. The only time he talked quietly was after I beat him and he whispered...so that the crowd of about a 100 people couldn't hear...that we could play again for $50 a game. He knew and I knew that as a 18 year old college kid that even if I could come up with the money...I'd choke for $50. But man was he fun to be around. He wasn't a champion player...but he was a champion game maker, gambler and comedian. I also saw and played Ronnie Allen in Phoenix in his later years. He to was a fun guy to be around and a big time hustler...but he was also a champion pool player...much better than Fats every was. Both put a smile on your face every time they came around.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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gears

He beat Richie Florence, who was in his prime, out of $26,000 playing One Pocket at JC getting 8-7. They played about eight or nine times over a three week period and never bet over 300 a game! That's probably the equivalent of winning over 100K today. That was in 1966 or '67 when he was in his early 50's. I also watched him beat one of the top Three Cushion players in the country for $1,000 in a single Race to 50. He ran nine and out when trailing 47-41. That was in 1963. I traveled with Fats around Ohio and Indiana when I was a kid (19-20) and he put on exhibitions every day, usually playing Eight Ball against all comers. On two or three occasions someone challenged him to play for money and he never backed down. He got a little excited by such a challenge and became very animated. If someone asked him to play one game for $10, he would say bet 50. The guys who challenged him would usually shut up after that but twice I saw him play someone for $50 and he won both times. Fats could play and don't ever think he couldn't. The other old time greats respected him. Guys like Wimpy, Taylor, Moore, Irish, Rood and Willis were always amused when he came in and started talking. Some of the young players didn't like it quite as much.




I just spent hours watching Fats. What I saw was that he had gears, always seemed to have one more too. As a youngster I thought I could have beaten the in his fifties or so Fats if I could have taped his mouth shut. I wouldn't have tackled the nonstop needling. Looking with a bit keener eye, probably best for me we never met!

Fats reminds me of a slight of hand artist. He is running his mouth so much it is easy to miss how well he is really playing and the difficulty of the shots he is firing in.

Hu
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
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It took a very strong player to beat Fats at One Pocket, Banks or Three Cushions and only the champions could spot him. I saw Fats come into a roomful of champions and start woofing and having fun with them. I didn't see a lot of guys trying to make a game with him, and even the ones who did were very careful. He was a top flight gambler who played better the higher the bet and the more the pressure. At Pool, that is. He could be a sucker at cards.

I saw Fats play a couple hundred games through the 70's & 80's. Taught me some nice 3C shots. Supposedly 3C was his best game but of course no money in it.

Your description of Fat's game is spot on. But of course you know that.

Better come prepared playing banks or one pocket. Maybe not the best in the world but no pushover. I did see him play Ronnie Allen in St. Louis. I forget the outcome or spot, but remember it as a close game.
 
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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
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Fats reminds me of a slight of hand artist. He is running his mouth so much it is easy to miss how well he is really playing and the difficulty of the shots he is firing in.

Hu

armed only with stories
and past-prime youtube vids
I see pool in fats

just because he talked a lot
doesn't mean he couldn't play
even now, with st. peter racking
fats is still working a crowd
here on mortal earth
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
According to many of the better players back in the Johnston City days, Fats was a much better game maker than a player. He was best at setting up games he could win, always getting spots from better players, which was most of the time. And he loved the action.

I think I'd have beaten Fats and his yapping mouth if I had been around then, just as many here would've done. But chances are he'd have wanted too much weight and we'd have never gotten a game with him.

Too many people think of Jackie Gleason's character in The Hustler, and associate that fictional skill level with the fat man that hoodwinked people into believing he was Walter Tevis's "Minnesota Fats". Wanderone was probably a decent player, but not a real good player, despite his self-appointed crown of greatness.

I think Walderone had it wrong. It wasn't Tevis who used him as a basis for Minnesota Fats. I think it was Gleason. They were both from New York and both hung out in pool halls and probably knew each other, or at least, knew of each other. Many of Gleason's mannerisms in the film were similar to Walderone's, particularly a neck twitch.
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think Walderone had it wrong. It wasn't Tevis who used him as a basis for Minnesota Fats. I think it was Gleason. They were both from New York and both hung out in pool halls and probably knew each other, or at least, knew of each other. Many of Gleason's mannerisms in the film were similar to Walderone's, particularly a neck twitch.

Ever read the original incarnation of the Hustler story from Playboy magazine in 1957?

The character who would become Minnesota Fats in the Hustler had a twitch. The story was slightly different, with the original character not being suave and smooth. He was a twitchy suspicious criminal type.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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Well Put!

armed only with stories
and past-prime youtube vids
I see pool in fats

just because he talked a lot
doesn't mean he couldn't play
even now, with st. peter racking
fats is still working a crowd
here on mortal earth


Well put! Fats will be remembered long after others with better formal records are forgotten! People around pool tables in bars are still saying he is the best pool player ever. He did make a very solid middle class living out of pool year in and year out. How many players then or now can make that claim?

When I think of all the skills and knowledge a pool player needs both on and off the table, Fats might be the best! I watched part of I think the first Wide World of Sports match between the two last night. Fats got Mosconi hot enough to bet anything Fats wanted to bet on the rest of the event! Willie threw his wallet on the table one event, maybe this one. Fats said play for a thousand. Peeled a thousand off a wad of cash and he still seemed to have a lot more than he peeled off!

You know things were getting bad when I tell you Howard Cosell was playing peacemaker!

Watched several of the Fats/Mosconi events and some of the "Legends" events. That was the kind of fun pool I think even nonplayers would watch. Put Fats and UJ Puckett on the same table and that was great entertainment! Not sure which was the greater showman, I'm not even sure who won, one thing for sure, the crowd won!

Hu
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well put! Fats will be remembered long after others with better formal records are forgotten! People around pool tables in bars are still saying he is the best pool player ever. He did make a very solid middle class living out of pool year in and year out. How many players then or now can make that claim?

When I think of all the skills and knowledge a pool player needs both on and off the table, Fats might be the best! I watched part of I think the first Wide World of Sports match between the two last night. Fats got Mosconi hot enough to bet anything Fats wanted to bet on the rest of the event! Willie threw his wallet on the table one event, maybe this one. Fats said play for a thousand. Peeled a thousand off a wad of cash and he still seemed to have a lot more than he peeled off!

You know things were getting bad when I tell you Howard Cosell was playing peacemaker!

Watched several of the Fats/Mosconi events and some of the "Legends" events. That was the kind of fun pool I think even nonplayers would watch. Put Fats and UJ Puckett on the same table and that was great entertainment! Not sure which was the greater showman, I'm not even sure who won, one thing for sure, the crowd won!

Hu
If it wasn't for "The Hustler" nobody would have ever heard of him. I know a gentleman who traveled the road with Fats and Squirrel back in the day. I asked him just how good he played and he said Fatty was a decent 1p player but a grade-A match-up artist. He either ducked top players or got the game in his favor. When the movie came out he claimed MF was based on him, a statement Tevis flat-out denied. Fats lived the rest of his life of the "fame". A showman for sure.
 

rhinobywilhite

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hu, appreciated your post very much with one tiny disagreement-I would put Fats earnings at above middle class for that time in history.

I was a kid in the forties. Very few guys carried a wad like Fats and banks weren't trusted because of what happened with bank closures in the Depression.

He was upper middle class or better, financially.
 

BC21

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If it wasn't for "The Hustler" nobody would have ever heard of him. I know a gentleman who traveled the road with Fats and Squirrel back in the day. I asked him just how good he played and he said Fatty was a decent 1p player but a grade-A match-up artist. He either ducked top players or got the game in his favor. When the movie came out he claimed MF was based on him, a statement Tevis flat-out denied. Fats lived the rest of his life of the "fame". A showman for sure.

Exactly. He was good at making winnable games. And he took advantage of the fat man movie character opportunity and exploited the hell out of it, as any respectable opportunistic hustler would do.

However, as with most full-time gamblers who play on their own cash, nobody really knows how much money is won or lost. From their mouths you only hear about the wins. Winners often exaggerate their winnings while losers downplay their losses.

But I gotta give Wanderone props for his love of action, for his love of the game, and for his ability to capitalize on an opportunity that brought him fame. Well, he was never really famous...it was the name "Minnesota Fats" that became famous, that fictional character portrayed by Gleason. When pool players think of Minnesota Fats they don't picture a gloating Rudolph Wanderone going around setting up games he can win, living out of a car or motorhome. They picture the suave and refined Jackie Gleason, living the "good life" of a gambler, just like in the movie.

I imagine by the late 1970's there were 100's of decent fat pool players kicking themselves in the ass for not seizing the opportunity to become the great Minnesota Fats.
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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I saw Fats play a couple hundred games through the 70's & 80's. Taught me some nice 3C shots. Supposedly 3C was his best game but of course no money in it.

Your description of Fat's game is spot on. But of course you know that.

Better come prepared playing banks or one pocket. Maybe not the best in the world but no pushover. I did see him play Ronnie Allen in St. Louis. I forget the outcome or spot, but remember it as a close game.

In JC Ronnie offered Fats 9-7 and Fats wanted 8-6, so I suspect the spot was something like that, maybe 9-7 on Fat's break and 8-6 on Ronnie's. Ronnie was in with Richie the first day they played and pulled up after that one day. He saw the light. :)
He told me later that it was a bad game for Richie. Fat's moved too good and banked too good!
 

BC21

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It took a very strong player to beat Fats at One Pocket, Banks or Three Cushions and only the champions could spot him. I saw Fats come into a roomful of champions and start woofing and having fun with them. I didn't see a lot of guys trying to make a game with him, and even the ones who did were very careful. He was a top flight gambler who played better the higher the bet and the more the pressure. At Pool, that is. He could be a sucker at cards.

I would've loved to been around in those days! I only know what I've read from the likes of Buddy Hall, Mosconi, and others on how Fats played. Most say he was a better matchmaker than a player. But maybe that's how Fats wanted to be viewed, always keeping his true speed under wraps.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Exactly. He was good at making winnable games. And he took advantage of the fat man movie character opportunity and exploited the hell out of it, as any respectable opportunistic hustler would do.

However, as with most full-time gamblers who play on their own cash, nobody really knows how much money is won or lost. From their mouths you only hear about the wins. Winners often exaggerate their winnings while losers downplay their losses.

I was a young fan of the Mosconi vs Fats matches, because I believed then that Fats was the real deal.
When I got older and started reading a bit, I learned it was all bs. Mosconi's beef with Fats stemmed from the fact that Fats established his own stardom by telling the world he was the best, so good there was a movie about him, so good nobody was safe with their cash, etc... And here was Mosconi, a proven world champion that needed no elaborate tales of glory to make people think he was something more than he really was. It's sad, imo, that in order to make a buck Mosconi had to participate in those televised matches with Fats.

But I gotta give Wanderone props for his love of action, for his love of the game, and for his ability to capitalize on an opportunity that brought him fame. Well, he was never really famous...it was the name "Minnesota Fats" that became famous, that fictional character portrayed by Gleason. When pool players think of Minnesota Fats they don't picture a gloating Rudolph Wanderone going around setting up games he can win, living out of a car or motorhome. They picture the suave and refined Jackie Gleason, living the "good life" of a gambler, just like in the movie.

I imagine by the late 1970's there were 100's of decent fat pool players kicking themselves in the ass for not seizing the opportunity to become the great Minnesota Fats.
Well said. Match-up artist and opportunist of the highest order. When it came to playing the game there were a bunch that would run over him. But his "fame" goes on. Ask a lot of people today to name a pool player and Willie Mosconi or Fats will often be first thing they say. They wouldn't know Crane, Caras, Sigel,etc. from the man in the moon.
 
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